[00:00 –> 00:18] Peace, everybody. Father Angelus here. I just want to say thank you for all of you who support the Poco a Poco podcast. Your generosity and faithfulness to us helps us to share the gospel with all those that tune in every week. If you’re not yet a monthly supporter, would you prayerfully consider joining us or even increasing your support so that we can keep our mission going?
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[00:33 –> 00:39] (Music)
[00:39 –> 01:09] Hey, I’m father Mark. Mary. Hey. I’m pretty. Hey, everybody! Father innocent here. This is the Poco a Poco podcast, and we are here. Hear my father. Angelus. Who is there somewhere else? He still. That’s crazy. Still in the air. Which is a four week flight. Bro, he gets to the airport early. My man. Definitely my man. Would you.
[01:09 –> 01:31] So wait. What comes to mind is type A is type is that type a kind of where you’re, like, early, it’s in control. You’re kind of like, is that type AA or is that something different? It can be type. It can also be type anxious. Also I say I see what you did there like that. But he’s he’s my man is a planner and he likes to be the early.
[01:31 –> 01:50] Does he really. Oh yeah. So I remember. So Father Gabriel Emmanuel, who’s more in my camp like, hey, let’s hang out as long as we can. We support as late as possible. I think there’s something even two was like, we just don’t mind the stress of, like, traveling. That’s the I’ll do. But anyway, so it’s like a different mindset.
[01:51 –> 02:11] He travel with other angels like from IPF and angels is always like like shaking, nervous like, hey, can we go now? You know, it’s like 4 hours or 3 hours before the flight and so that’s just a thing for him, brother Angelus. So we’ve talked about the early, the type I’ve learned about a new type of person. We have, you know, the early airport people, the old type airport people.
[02:12 –> 02:33] So I’m going to I’m going to paint this in very broad strokes. Okay. I was at and then roll and then flipped has a question. I was at a like a public space with a group of people, and I saw two people in this group. Well, essentially brush their teeth. One of them had his little container he always kept with them, went brush his teeth.
[02:34 –> 02:57] Another person, somewhat accidentally, just happened to have their toothbrush still with them. And they brush their teeth and we eat dinner. It’s like, oh, you know what? Actually, man, you guys win. I wish I would have been able to brush my teeth right now and now. And they both offered their toothbrushes. Get out of here. Both offered the toothbrushes, but not.
[02:57 –> 03:22] But it didn’t stop there. They both tried to make arguments for why it made sense, and that I should just use their toothbrush, and, And they tried to talk me into it, and I said, I have never I didn’t know these type of people existed because, to be honest, like, I’m not a super germaphobe. There could be a situation like it’s not 100% against everything.
[03:22 –> 03:47] I believe in to use somebody’s toothbrush in an emergency situation, but the idea that it’s ridiculous not to. I didn’t know that type of person existed. This is this is, tutu, tutu, tutu, tutu. Best news breaking for me. Like, because I’d be too. Yeah, I there’s there’s there’s a lot of personal things I wouldn’t share, but like in that category is a toothbrush.
[03:47 –> 04:12] Because if you think about what a toothbrush does, it brushes your teeth of all the, the gunk and the the tartar buildup. And I would not want to share that with another person, nor have their own stuff on my. It’s just nasty outside like I, I mean, we live in community. Like I’ll share the same bottle of Listerine with somebody else that’s different.
[04:12 –> 04:40] But like the whole toothbrush communal toothbrush thing, the, good. Father. Innocent. I mean, I agree 1,000%. It’s nasty. I, I haven’t had many experiences. I’ve never been had a personal experience where I needed that. But when I was with the the burros in the desert, guys forgot their toothbrushes. And so they. What would you have done if you were in the desert and you forgot your toothbrush?
[04:40 –> 04:44] I,
[04:44 –> 04:48] It’s a good question because I don’t.
[04:48 –> 05:11] Yeah, I don’t, it’s just don’t I, I just don’t feel comfortable saying like, yeah, I would Parsons toothbrush like, I would, I think I’d probably try to use toothpaste in in my finger or something like try to just, I don’t know, like I didn’t forget my toothbrush. That’s the thing. I’m just kidding. Just kidding. I, I think this is I don’t know if it’s a thing, but somebody told me this one point in time.
[05:11 –> 05:29] I don’t know if it’s true or not, but you can use an apple, like in a similar way of a toothbrush in the sense of like I because of the, the milliners or whatever the apple has. Like when you bite into it, it can somewhat, quote unquote, clean your teeth in a place of a toothbrush. I’m not saying it’s as effective.
[05:29 –> 05:44] I’m sure dentists out there shaking their heads, but it’s not as effective of a toothbrush. But like in a situation like that, I think you can use an apple. I don’t know, there’s like, like biting and like rubbing your, like, teeth on it, but like, what’s your source for this? My source is when I was in college, okay.
[05:44 –> 06:06] I was with a bunch of guys and this was a conversation that somebody said with authority like meaning they said it confidently. So that’s my source. There’s a thing amongst the friars when somebody like they say something, I’m like, who? Your source? And then they start to mention a friar and I’m like, no, that’s not it. It’s it’s not good.
[06:06 –> 06:30] And so yes. Okay. So the source from that father point from you can fact check that, you know, you have technology to it is a site college guy 20 years ago okay. So maybe yeah maybe you have your whole life changed by that. Anyway, I just share it. I don’t think it’s like in, it’s in a dire situation or a.
[06:30 –> 06:51] There are situations in which I would use somebody’s toothbrush. Are there. There are, there are, there are. What would it be? I’m interested to know, let’s say I mean, you like, let’s let’s make it, we’re in the desert together. They go on this, trip, and you’re like. And let’s say I didn’t have any qualms about this.
[06:51 –> 07:11] I was like, go. Then you ferry toothbrushes. Okay, bro. So it would have to be like. It’d be like, you know, like so. So we’re in the desert 21 days. Okay? So that’s like a thing, and it’s like, You know what? Like, I didn’t I didn’t realize I had, like, this old toothbrush. And so this is where, like, for some people, might be worse.
[07:12 –> 07:32] There’s an old one that’s been here for, like, I probably like, 2 or 3 months. I forgot I was here. I’m using this other one. Do you want to, like, use this old one? Like, I think in that situation, like you’d like, rinse it off a little bit, whatever. And then I think I would use it. I feel like though I, I’m, I feel like the old one’s even worse.
[07:32 –> 07:48] But see, for me, for me, it’s not about like the germs as much as like I don’t want like I’m not trying to, like, take somebody’s toothbrush and it’s like, still, like moist. Okay, we got to get off this topic from time. They use weed, but it’s like this old thing that’s like, removed. Okay, I can rinse it off.
[07:48 –> 08:11] Whatever. He’s not going to use it again. It’s my now I would, I would I’m not completely against that. That’s wild bro I rather put sand in my mouth. We’ll find it. Yeah, fine. An apple do sand. But see, that’s like I’m a little bit of an outside the. I don’t like, have. I’m not like too germ worried without being gross.
[08:11 –> 08:36] Oh. Well this could be on the edge of that. All right. And then father would like to ask question, the most obvious question in the world. There is no marriage to this question. There’s no marriage. It’s not a discussion question. Oh, well, it’s just like one of those would you rather questions. It’s all it is. And, I don’t know what it reveals about the person, but here’s a simple question.
[08:36 –> 08:53] Let’s say you would be provided for meaning. You would have everything you need to live, and you can actually live in these places. Would you rather live in space or at the bottom of the ocean?
[08:54 –> 09:11] That’s a simple question. Would you rather live in space or in the bottom of the ocean? Ocean means in the ocean. It will happen. It means in the ocean. In the ocean? Yeah. You’re not like in a submarine in the bottom or looking like you’re like you are able to breathe the water. Just like you’d be able to breathe in space.
[09:11 –> 09:14] And so.
[09:14 –> 09:33] I open the floor because I have an answer. But are we really opening this? I thought we said we were going to because it’s a silly question. The obvious answer is, is the ocean? Everyone says the ocean. He asked this with a group a family were at wherever we were at. They had a large age range. They were very partial to Father PT.
[09:34 –> 09:45] All of them said the ocean space. You’re literally out by yourself with nothing to really to look at. Forever.
[09:45 –> 09:55] Father innocent. Do you have any thoughts about this? Where’s your heart on this? I’m just going to keep it really simple. I’m an ocean guy.
[09:56 –> 10:18] Two for two. Hey, I’m going to space I. And just for context, I was with a group of people, I think, a week or two ago, and everybody said space. So I don’t know if it’s like everybody’s. Everybody who’s reasonable says the ocean. And my, my reason for space is I think there’s so many cool things in space that you can see.
[10:18 –> 10:45] And okay. Mr.. I’ll be alone. So it’s either the choice of being out in space by yourself or being in the ocean with fish that you can’t talk to. And yeah, that’s I don’t know how that accomplishes not being alone, but there’s other life forms around you. If that’s if that’s what you’re going after. I think it’d be dope to like, oh, cool, let’s look at the the earth from far away, or let’s go to Jupiter or like, see all these different things.
[10:45 –> 11:06] And so also you can like, you can fly millions of miles an hour though, if you could swim around the ocean. Okay. Well, I mean, like, I can hopefully not just be stuck on the moon and so that was that wasn’t completely part of it. Okay. So you’re hopping around planets and galaxies. Yeah. Why not? I’m in space.
[11:06 –> 11:26] Why can’t I do that? Okay. It’s a little bit different. I’m not going to be like I don’t know. Yeah. It’s like okay, this like floating around is that that’s that averages the ocean. And so like yeah you can just like everything’s accessible in the ocean. You can like go explore. You can like go explore. You guys are crazy.
[11:26 –> 11:43] Coral. You can look at the fish, you can try and catch the fish. All you’re doing is looking at scenery in space, but you’re, like, visiting. Like you’re, like, walking around on Jupiter. Yeah, as much as I can. You know, this does change a little bit. It makes it less obvious. But the answer’s still in the ocean.
[11:43 –> 12:03] I’m freezing on Pluto, which is technically a planet, but still is, like, whoa, look at the size. Super far. Pluto might be back. Okay. Thank you. But, like one of the moons of Jupiter or, like, just in the, in the rings of Saturn or going to different galaxy is like, oh, snap, there’s a planet that I can whatever hang out at.
[12:03 –> 12:07] And so for me, it’s like interstellar without the ship and the people.
[12:08 –> 12:38] I’ve never seen interstellar, because they’re babies of different planets. And so I’m sorry, but that’s it. That was my contribution. Okay, so you did change some of what it meant. But anyway, I still think it’s. Hey, is a tortilla, health food? Yes or no? I’m going to say yes. Viviana, innocent? No, don’t think too deeply about this.
[12:38 –> 12:54] No. That the. We played Scattergories, and that was one of the the answers. All right. Anyway, so what we’re gonna talk about today is, this is a there’s a theme again that’s come up a lot.
[12:55 –> 13:24] And it could be tied to, like, personalities, but I think it’s I think it’s tied as well. I don’t know, maybe I felt this kind of early on and I feel like a, the like changed my is there’s there’s a, there’s a lot of questions out there that basically come down to like, what is my like what is my responsibility towards error or imperfection or, even sinfulness, like in the world.
[13:24 –> 13:56] Like like, okay, like, to what degree am I my brother’s keeper? What does it mean to be my brother’s keeper? What does it like and who like, who’s my brother in that situation? And so there’s a lot of people who I think feel a certain heaviness, you know, towards, their siblings who maybe aren’t practicing the faith or towards their parents or, maybe some of their friends and, but also then they’re like, so it’s like, okay, I see this behavior.
[13:56 –> 14:27] I see it’s not that not going well. Like what what is my part to play? And they certainly can often I think you see this. They take upon themselves the like this essentially this is like my problem to solve. This is my error to correct. Or but then it also kind of goes to bigger, like, okay, I came across the stranger doing this, like, what is my what is my, responsibility in this situation?
[14:27 –> 14:42] And right, like, not that long ago for us, as we’re recording this, we did have the gospel, which is essentially talks about like sharing in God’s salvation through like, fraternal correction, where it’s like, okay, if your neighbor has sins against you, go to them. If they don’t listen, bring another person, they don’t listen. Bring the church.
[14:42 –> 15:07] So there is there is some there like we’re not we there is some degree of, of of responsibility. But also I do think that there’s going to be some degree of, some areas where maybe, the active intervention, direct intervention, maybe not what we’re being invited to or call to or certainly not mandated to do so. Yeah.
[15:07 –> 15:26] Like, can you guys kind of explore a little bit like seen this and initial thoughts that maybe you have. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I guess there’s a couple initial thoughts, especially kind of we’re talking about Francis and things like that. So I’ll just say a few things.
[15:26 –> 15:55] Yeah, I think like this, this experience of fraternal correction or kind of kind of seeing the world and weakness in, in kind of collectively the world and the culture or someone like particularly someone I think for Francis, he’s going to have a he’s going to have a lot to say on fraternal correction or helping the brothers, or he has a particular, way of talking about relationships with bishops or especially weak clergy or weak bishops.
[15:55 –> 16:05] I think what I want to say is, I think that just going to I think you think the gospel.
[16:05 –> 16:32] Yeah. Like maybe the perspective or maybe the lens through which we see this is, is always fraternal charity. It’s always. Yeah, it’s it’s because we, we’re moved by, by like salvation and longing for people to, to be saved and, and kind of reconnected to the Lord. So I think it’s one of those things not to fix or not to judge, but to be for Francis, who was like, no, like, it’s a mercy.
[16:32 –> 17:00] We want to make sure people don’t like souls aren’t lost. Right. So the motivation for any type of like outward movement of correction or judgment is always charity. And what that means is that we have we we, we have this incredible sense of gentleness and tenderness, I think, right, because they there can be like an intensity where that can come across as is kind of off putting or, I just don’t think Jesus.
[17:00 –> 17:32] Yes, he was sometimes strong in like and presented like an intensity, but most times in the face of sin or struggle, he was super kind and gentle and tender, and he was moved with compassion for the lost. So I think that all needs to be brought into it. It’s just not a matter of like, okay, go correct your brother because he’s sinning, but what’s happening in the heart of the person, I think is just really important, and that there’s like a prerequisite for, for kind of going out, to, to evangelize, correct.
[17:32 –> 17:51] Fraternal correction of your brother. I think that means that we also we’re doing the work ourselves. Yeah. I mean, if if we’re inauthentic and we’re disconnected from the Lord and and we’re kind of living a double life, we’re not really kind of in the place of our of like, going deeper with the Lord and doing the work of renewal and conversion.
[17:51 –> 18:29] I think inauthenticity, inauthenticity or insincerity, people can pick up on that. So you’re like me and like, hey, you’re you’re correcting me. You’re always kind of coming at me and my and talking about my weaknesses. But but it’s not coming from a place of like, your own kind of own conversion or or own living of the gospel. I just think that sounds important to me, that if we’re going to, if we’re going to be turned outward, we have to make sure that we’re also living it, because that brings authenticity and sincerity, which I think can keep us safe, in the sense of like when our own stuff comes up, and it can keep
[18:29 –> 18:34] it protected from being judgmental, or harsh.
[18:34 –> 19:01] Thank you for that person. Yeah. And I have more to share. Specifically, what are you talking about? With the mercy that Francis encouraged others to just enter into this space. But I see that for later. But I do think there is something there as far as just how like first starting with the movement of our own hearts and how the Lord has been merciful with us and how he’s loved us before we go out and correct our brothers.
[19:01 –> 19:20] Because like there is, it is a dynamic tension in the sense of we’re not just called to like let things pass by, and if we see something happen, just be like, totally, yeah, just totally silent about it because that that can be a sin in itself if we do no more. But at the same time, are we called as is we?
[Editor’s note: The Church teaches that we can share responsibility for another person’s sin when we culpably fail to hinder it where we have an obligation to do so. What charity requires depends on the situation.]
[19:20 –> 19:47] We asked the question to comment about everything or to to to correct and fix everybody. But I do think the more in which we’re able to experience the mercy of the Lord for our own selves in difficult places, the not just easier it becomes, but the more authentic, as you’re saying, the place like, the more authentic it is when when we receive somebody or when we approach somebody else, and instead of looking at us, we look at the Lord instead of looking at us.
[19:47 –> 20:06] They see to something different in the way in which we approach them. And so I do think it’s super important that we are able to to first take healthy stock of how the Lord has been merciful with us. Now, this is mixing, mixing parables here. But it’s like the the servant who has been forgiven much and he’s been given forgiven a huge debt.
[20:06 –> 20:36] And then he goes out and he strangles somebody else, very much smaller debt. And so we don’t want to be that servant who does that. But in the space now of just, responsibility that we have at times or that we feel like we have at times to correct someone or to bring the truth to a situation that is difficult or a situation that may not be be gospel like, the first question maybe to ask is instead of like, how do I correct this person?
[20:36 –> 21:00] Or what’s what’s the best way to approach this person is like, how is the Lord met me? Like in a difficult place? Or how is the Lord being with me in this space of, yeah, when I was off and then we could experience like, oh my gosh, he’s been compassionate, loving, merciful, or like whatever comes up and then we can approach the other person if it’s what the Lord is asking us to do, if it’s the right thing with that same heart for our own selves to.
[21:00 –> 21:12] So that way we’re not. Yeah, just being very cynical or just like telling them the letter of the law without any of sort of the spirit of the or the heart of the Lord in that space. And so those are some initial thoughts there.
[21:12 –> 21:14] Thank you guys.
[21:14 –> 21:52] Yeah. Like, okay. So and I do I do think like, language is important. And I do I am kind of leaning more towards using these, these this like language of us being called to share in like Jesus’s reconciliation with the world or, sharing in Jesus salvation of the world. And that part of that does include this concept like a fraternal correction, as opposed to just starting with fraternal correction, because I think,
[21:52 –> 22:27] It’s often not enough to sort of like, coldly and from without to, police our neighbor and to just point out the things that they’re doing wrong without like, reconcile, like without, relationship with them. Right. And without good sort of wisdom and discernment. I think that, if we’re kind of going, going around as sort of deputize fraternal corrections sheriffs, just pointing out everything that everyone’s doing wrong, most likely they’re not going to change their behavior.
[22:27 –> 22:45] They’re just going to break relationship with you. And, so I think there I think there is just some of that. And so it’s like, okay. And I think it’s, one of the things that we point out is a lot of times, often it’s like, we had to be careful that it is, like mercy and love driven and not selfish.
[22:45 –> 23:06] Driven like this thing that they’re doing is annoying. So I’m going to correct them or I feel some sort of pang of conscience. And if I just say something, even though it might not be effective or well discerned or prudent, at least I can, like in my mind, check the box of like, well, I corrected them. So I’m no longer sort of in any way kind of guilty for what he does.
[23:06 –> 23:27] And so I think a lot of it can be motivated by that, or just some sort of natural desires for controlling people, or getting out frustration. So there’s a lot there’s a lot to discern about, like, why am I trying to do this? Or there can be a lot to discern. It doesn’t have to be a long process, but to to have self-awareness.
[23:27 –> 23:30] But I guess, like,
[23:30 –> 23:36] I don’t know what the situation,
[23:36 –> 24:03] In reality, like, we’re not doing this a lot, and I think there’s something of that that might be okay. Right. Like, every time you go, I don’t know, like, like, if you go say you go to a retreat center or you go to a parish, and then if, like all the brothers are talking about all the things that are wrong here, and then you send like a note to the retreat center of like, okay, here’s the things that need to change.
[24:03 –> 24:29] It’s like, I don’t I don’t think that’s fully the spirit of the gospel. You know, so I like, I just my, like, my leaning is probably that. Hey, like, it may look a lot different than you think. It’s probably, you probably don’t have as much responsibility as maybe you think you do and like to surrender somebody to the Lord to pray and then to be open.
[24:29 –> 24:52] If there is some, like, more direct conversation. But I don’t know, like, I’m just, I like pulling off kind of real lived experience as well, either in what you have done or haven’t done, discernment that you’ve made. Just more, more to kind of add or unpack here. Go for it.
[24:52 –> 25:18] Real life experience. I was going to go a different direction. That’s why I’m hesitant here. You can just go. You can do it whatever direction you want. Okay? Just because, I was going to share a little bit about Saint Francis as far as and I think it’s his life experience which can maybe speak into our own life experience, but, so it’s a letter to the minister, and this is like the superior of a house, basically.
[25:18 –> 25:48] I won’t read all of it, but there’s definitely certain parts of it that are super anyway, to super moving and this in this context of fraternal charity and fraternal correction, because a superior somebody in charge. And I think parents can also relate to this, to where you’re, you’re kind of given just the responsibility of just keeping the brothers together, you know, and yeah, just pointing out sometimes things that like, hey, when the milk is finished, it’d be good to go get another jug of milk, you know, even though you’re grown person.
[25:48 –> 26:07] Grown man. And I should have to tell you these things. But sometimes you need to hold up, like, little things like that, or, or it’s anything so like, even to, like for, for families like this happens. But Saint Francis talks about, to a letter to a letter in superior. He says, you must consider grace all that impedes you from loving the Lord God.
[26:07 –> 26:32] And whoever will become an impediment to you or their brothers or others, even if they lay hands on you. So it’s crazy, first of all. So like a release, the brother lays hands on me. I consider that from God. And he says, and love those who do these things to you and do not want anything different from them, except insofar as Lord gives it to you, and love them in this, and do not want to be be better Christians, and let this be more than a hermitage for you.
[26:32 –> 26:50] So like first of all, seeing Francis is crazy approach of like, hey, there’s going to be people are going to be situations, fraternal corrections or fraternal fraternal things that are just difficult. And the Lord is is giving this to you. And this may be more of the last episode where like, what’s the Lord’s like doing for you in this space?
[26:50 –> 27:10] And then he continues on saying, and in this I want to know. And in this I want to know if you love the Lord and be his servants and yours if you will do this, namely, that there would not be any brother in the world who has sinned however much he could have sinned, who, after he has looked into your eyes, would never return without your mercy.
[27:10 –> 27:30] If he’s seeking mercy, and if he were not seeking mercy, you ask him if he wants mercy, and if you would sin a thousand times before your eyes. Love him more than me, so that you may draw him to the Lord and always be merciful with brothers such as these, and you may announce this to the guardians when you can, that for your part, you are resolved to act in this way.
[27:30 –> 28:05] But that’s just crazy, you know what I mean? And so. But it goes back to the experience of like, can I actually meet the Lord in my in this space? Because I think, like Francis is speaking about this from a place of experience, that no matter how many times a brother would come to him and they’ve sinned against him or they they’ve done something like he he met them with mercy, and they look into his eyes and experience what he experienced as far as like the Lord looking at him in with mercy and love and some lived out experiences of this is is is something super simple where, yeah.
[28:05 –> 28:25] Like a brother. Like you have to have a difficult conversation with a brother about maybe something objectively he did wrong and like, what I do is I pray to the Lord, like, Jesus is going to help me. Amen. You know, and the brother comes, like you said, a meeting time with the brother and the brother already is like, hey, father, I just want to let you know I’m sorry about this.
[28:25 –> 28:54] And like, there’s already moving of his heart, and he was able to sit there and receive him in that space and and just to be like, you know, just to encourage him and to say, hey, look like, let’s move past this, but this is the truth. And, you know, I still so love you, care for you all these different things, or even to another particular situation is, like if a brother doesn’t actually see it, and, and yeah, it’s something where you’re still able to hold the truth, look at them in love, call them out or call them.
[28:54 –> 29:13] I’m. And just to to love them that space. I think it’s tough, but I think it once again comes from this place of just being received by Lord in that space. So it’s a different shift, a little bit of shift over maybe from where you were asking as far as where like practical, we’ve received these things where it’s experienced.
[29:13 –> 29:48] But yeah, just wanted to hold the heart of Francis and his writings in this space with fraternal corrections and how he sought that the minister should do it. But even more so how hopefully we have an experience of the Lord’s mercy for us, and we could communicate that to the other person. And just that, even the difficulties that we have in fraternal relationships, because of the difficulties, we can lean and press more into the Lord, and that to be even a hermitage to us, that hopefully the same thing is true for our listeners and and to say this also takes work, and it also takes, yeah, just us leaning on the grace
[29:48 –> 30:11] of of God and and trusting him in this space of, of difficulty and in these fraternal areas. And so, yeah. Yeah. I’m grateful for you there, bro. Just bringing Saint Francis in like that. Yeah. He has so much to say about this, actually, and his admonitions in these particular different formations around the heart of a leader servant. It’s kind of.
[30:11 –> 30:29] Yeah, it’s kind of provocative, I love it. So, Mark, Mary, I’m going to I’m going to share something that you actually shared and it I hope it lands. But but, we just know that in the context of leadership information, we’re in that space a lot. And I think parenting, is like this. Or being a leader at work or even friendship, I suppose.
[30:29 –> 30:47] But we’re we we’re in these types of relationships where we might have to, to do the fraternal correction or speak a hard word. And I think we’ve talked about it’s been noted, but it’s just kind of what’s on my heart is that is that this whole thing falls apart if there’s not trust. And so we we just emphasize so much the growing and trust.
[30:47 –> 31:06] Right. And, and that we, we really want to be in a space of receiving people. Well and they know they’re loved and seen. And so we had that takes time to invest. Right. You you can’t just like accidentally do that and fall into trust. We got to we we have to cultivate it. And it has to be like a real fatherly sense of that in people’s lives.
[31:06 –> 31:31] And so when you speak a word they know, they know that you love them and you have their best sense and my or that you have their best interest in mind, and also that you can see the deeper places. So trust seems to be very important here, that if we’re going, if we’re going to live in this space, that people that we have grown in trust in, there’s this mutuality and trust and love, that seems to be really important to at least in the context of our life.
[31:31 –> 31:50] It’s a medicine for the for all this to work. And also this is something you again, the thing you told me for the mercury is that like, there’s there’s a sense when it comes to fraternal correction that there’s capital like like, do I have the capital with this person? To, to to have a hard conversation. And the discernment is like, is this important?
[31:50 –> 32:08] Like, is this thing in this moment important or like, oh, man, like Father Bennett used to say, I won’t, I actually won’t quote minute but use these of yeah, some language around this but but saying that like this is small stuff like this is not a big deal because there’s going to be moments when these are this is a bigger deal.
[32:08 –> 32:24] And so, father, you’ve been accused of say we had to to like the small stuff go because then then when we say something it’s meaningful, has some power, but it’s always done in love and it’s always done in trust. So do we have capital with this person? Is there trust and do I want to do I want to do I want to make a withdrawal?
[32:24 –> 32:48] Do I want to say, okay, this is important enough to take a step in? Because the discernment might be like, man, I might need I just need to back off and pray and offer, or to be to kind of develop the don’t. The discernment skill is like, is this what the Lord’s doing? And to really take a step in because I think he’s asking me to give a word and, and it could really kind of save someone.
[32:48 –> 32:52] But but it’s all a part of the discernment. I think.
[32:52 –> 32:56] Yeah. I think you guys,
[32:56 –> 33:22] And because I think. Right, like, there’s one of these things that we have to kind of discern is like, what is my, essentially, like, relationship to this person? Yeah. Right. Like, the like, father shared a letter to, like, whatever to a superior and and so it’s like, is us is as, in some way superior or right, you know, previous or current, like local servants, like superior.
[33:22 –> 33:40] There is a way in which, we can’t like, we can’t completely neglect this duty. But there are times when we might it might have to be a little bit uncomfortable, but we might have to sort of coach and correct and sort of, you know, mirror things to them so that they can see, like, hey, here’s what I’m seeing.
[33:40 –> 33:51] What are you seeing? Like because I’m thinking from what I’m seeing, it seems like an adjustment needs to be made, but. Right, like so that those are all true. But,
[33:51 –> 34:15] Like, I don’t know if I’m at the met and I see, you know, one of the employees, like, hiding behind a pillar playing on their phone, and it’s obvious they’re not going to they’re not supposed to be doing that. I’m not going to correct that person. Like, are any of you guys going to going to correct that person?
[34:15 –> 34:33] Father, you’re going to correct that person. I’m paying a lot of money. They need to be know, obviously. Am I correct that person like and maybe we can use this like language of like so there certainly there are very, very grave things where you made it maybe a complete stranger. But you, you have to intervene like that that exists.
[34:33 –> 34:53] But like how big is like your if you will like your circle of correction? That’s a great question. I, I was actually thinking about this, so the like so in running, I’m sorry to make everything about running now, but, it’s like in running day, this is like 80/20. Like 80% of your runs should be easy, 20 should be difficult.
[34:53 –> 35:28] And I, I don’t know if that’s the same percentage for like conversations with people, but like 80% of your conversations should be somewhat not not difficult, you know, I mean like 20% or and I don’t know what the percentage is. Probably it’s probably more than 80%. Yeah. You know, I mean like and so it’s something where then it’s I think a good gauge for people like, hey, or like 50% of my conversations with my friend about something correct the behavior or like, even with this person behind the met, you know, okay, that’s 100% my conversation with this person is corrected.
[35:28 –> 35:49] And not to say once again, like, okay, there’s like, if you see some guy, like smacking a woman, oh, don’t like walk by like, hey, hey, stop. Like there’s clear objective things that we need to know to step into, but, like for these discernible ones, like, I’m not sure. And then also, do I think I showed this before in the past, like, am I the one that needs to say something to I to see something?
[35:49 –> 36:09] There’s something should be said. Am I the one to say something into something we said? Now, like those three principles I think are important even in this fraternal correction space. But but going back to the percentages, I think it could be like 9010, you know, or 95 five, but it is something where a lot of our conversations should be more uplifting or just not difficult conversations.
[36:09 –> 36:32] Because at least for myself, I speak here, I don’t enjoy having to live in the 5 to 20%, whatever it is, you know, and and maybe sometimes people do, but I don’t know if the Lord in his heart for us, in our own like places where we feel safe in relationship is to like, constantly be correcting or to be corrected.
[36:32 –> 36:37] And so I just offer that.
[36:37 –> 36:56] For instance, you want to comment on the circle of correction. I, I just I mean, you guys have thought about this. I mean, you but I mean, I, I’m just grateful it seems to be like super clear and sharp. I just have I just, I just maybe have some wounding around this in, in community life, actually.
[36:56 –> 37:17] So, meaning just when you talk about the circle of correction, only in the sense of, like phrase correcting each other, serving like people under you, correcting you as a leader. And, and so I immediately kind of went there as far as, like, wow, that’s an interesting question. Like, how do we create a culture in our own lives where these things can happen?
[37:17 –> 37:38] And so, anyway, I was just I was just thinking more of that in that way because we can hurt each other and, and obviously there’s I appreciate like, there’s going to be a lot of clarity around like, oh, we’re we’re not going to definitely not going to correct. That’s not our responsibility for that guy. But when it when it comes to family or comes to religious or, your brothers, we have to do that.
[37:38 –> 37:55] Well, because we can take a risk. And if we’re not prepared and we’re not in a good space, it can hurt people. So that’s just kind of what I’m. That’s what I was thinking about when you I was I was pondering. And I guess we can add to this is,
[37:55 –> 38:15] I think, I think there is space for saying like, right. So if I had the thing, there’s something to be said. Am I the one to say? It doesn’t need to be said now. I think there’s space in the. Am I the one to say it? To recognize, you know what? Like maybe that the answer to that might be no, maybe I’m not the person to say it.
[38:15 –> 38:20] Maybe I don’t actually have,
[38:20 –> 38:40] Like the trust or the influence, you know, maybe, I don’t have there like this. This person, like, doesn’t care. Like, they actually dislike me and disrespect me. And, maybe it’s because of, like, decisions I’ve made. And now, like, now I. And now I can’t just go in and, like, correct them and expect them to actually receive that.
[38:40 –> 38:59] It’s just going to it’s not going to bring reconciliation, it’s going to bring more division. So I think I just think that I want to kind of throw it out there is that there is a a real possibility that the answer is like, you know what, maybe it’s not me, or maybe this isn’t the time and to kind of accept that limitation.
[38:59 –> 39:16] But again, but then what we do is like, okay, so Lord, here’s the situation. Here’s is a loved one who’s not practicing the faith. Here’s the here’s my whoever who’s not taking their kids to church, whatever, you know, Lord. Like, okay, it was my conversation to have Lord, give me the courage, give me insight. I don’t think it is like in my discernment.
[39:16 –> 39:33] So I just surrender this to you, Lord, and trust that you’re you got them. And that that’s like in many situations, like not a cop out, like it could be. So you got to check that. But it it could just be like a valid response to something. Yeah. And I think, I think sometimes that’s even more difficult.
[39:33 –> 40:05] Right. Because they’re having a difficult, difficult conversation is having a difficult conversation I mean it’s tough. But then we’re also like, what’s being wrestled away from us is the control in the situation. To know that we’ve done something to check that that emotional box like, okay, I fulfilled this duty, therefore I’m right before the Lord. And so giving him the permission and giving him the control, giving him the stuff is sometimes even more of a difficult response to a situation that we want to see, like immediate answers to.
[40:05 –> 40:26] Yeah. Like even that’s a space that needs to be looked at by the Lord and or by us with the Lord. And so that, I feel like there’s something else I can say with the time thing now, I think you said it, but it’s just like, is the person able to receive it, you know, at this time, you know, because sometimes it’s just, I listen to somebody about leadership there, not a podcaster.
[40:26 –> 40:46] But anyway, he says, like, sometimes at work he would just be direct as far as, like his assessment of people and with one person in particular, like they just shut down and would not receive any sort of and like it happens quarterly as far as like work assessments. And then he learned eventually to say, hey, I have some tough feedback for you.
[40:46 –> 41:05] Are you able to receive it right now? And the person actually said, can we do this tomorrow? And they. Sure. And then the next day they were able to like actually receive it. So just to say, like sometimes you think you need to say something and the person’s just not in an emotional space to receive it. So what does it look like if you do discern to say something like, what is it?
[41:05 –> 41:20] Look to give the person grace and space to be able to receive what you’re going to say, or also to maybe they don’t have the capacity to receive what you’re going to say. And so it could be something where, as you said, a follow up, Mary, just handing it over to the Lord, like, Lord, I love this person.
[41:20 –> 41:49] They’re fill in the blank of relationship to me and I just I know you care for them more than I do, and so I just give them to you in the space of fill in the blank, whatever. They’re not doing that you think you’re supposed to be doing. So I think there’s a lot of just like, the bravery, but like, it’s is very courageous to be able to do that with the Lord, trusting him, allowing control to be wrestled out of your hands, giving it to the Lord, and surrendering even these most intimate places of our hearts where we want the person because it’s ultimately love.
[41:49 –> 42:06] I think that we want the person to do well. We want the person to to be more in line with the church, because it’s all to me for their salvation. Salvation, as we were talking about before, this is like participating in Jesus salvation. And sometimes salvation looks like just handing the person over the Lord as opposed to saying so.
[42:06 –> 42:28] Sometimes it does mean saying something. But just in this space of discerning whether or not we can or can’t, inviting the Lord to the space of our own discernment and just allowing him to move us, or to move the conversations in the places that need to go. Yeah. It’s great. Yeah. And I love that whole thing about. And, you know, you got her feedback.
[42:28 –> 42:46] How do you want to receive it. And I think probably a lot of us have done something like that with a friend, like, hey, here’s the thing we’re working about on how do you want me to like, how do you want me to bring this to you, you know, and let them have some sort of agency in choosing that, that just so charitable and so kind and so, yeah.
[42:46 –> 43:13] Anyway. But but also real and clear anyway, so I just. Yeah. I just love all that. Okay, let’s go through one more thing and then, because I think so, I think, okay, I think there’s a, there’s a certain type of person and this is kind of the person I’m, I’m trying, I guess, to address who, who feels a certain weight and the heaviness towards the world and feels a certain sort of, maybe.
[43:13 –> 43:23] Yeah. Like the burden of kind of correcting everybody, not being able to do it. And it’s just it’s something that they weigh heavily.
[43:23 –> 43:52] So I, when I walk past Jehovah’s Witness on a Saturday in Central Park, I don’t stop and have a big conversation with them, trying to sort of show them their errors and correct them. I’ve discerned, you know, like, I have my part to play. I’m playing it. I’m not like, I don’t know, a lot of this stuff, like the apologetics.
[43:52 –> 44:17] I don’t know what really what they believe. I’m not necessarily, like, equipped with a bunch of sort of great answers to how to do it. Like, I obviously I know a lot, but there’s like a lot I don’t necessarily know. I haven’t really felt super called to apologetics, and I’m okay with that insofar as, like I’ve been given sort of like a more than full plate of things to give my time and resources to.
[44:17 –> 44:43] But I’m a limited person, you know, maybe I’m going from A to B and like, right now it just it doesn’t feel like the time to do that. I’ve made that discernment. And I actually don’t have any qualm of conscience for that. But for a lot of people, they can, you know, especially maybe a young, zealous person, they’ll be walking with you in the park and they’ll see Jehovah’s Witness and be like, aren’t you going to do anything about that?
[44:43 –> 45:07] And they can sort of read that as maybe, indifference. So why can that be something that’s like, discerned even for a priest and not be judged indifference and not go against sort of the Lord’s invitation to like, if you will, like the correction we see in the gospel. Yeah. I really appreciate that question because I think it happens a lot.
[45:07 –> 45:26] I think our younger brothers feel that, I appreciate your, I appreciate just the comments of like, hey, I feel this is called I feel this is kind of my place because because I, I would I mean, I would do something very similar, like, I don’t I don’t feel the need to get on the apologetics train unless the Lord really anoint it.
[45:26 –> 45:45] I just like again to be present and to make connection, to bless. And then if there’s questions or sometimes like, it can be really beautiful how things open up. But again, we I just want to I just want to help people be at peace. Like what is God doing? We don’t like. We just want to make sure we’re not like a lot of us.
[45:45 –> 46:05] And our insecurity and our fear is not forcing things. What is God doing? What’s how’s God opening this space? I think usually feels anointing, light, peace. I’m stepping in. It’s there’s clarity. But also if there’s there’s supposed to be an act of boldness if there. But you’re going to know that from the Lord, or at least ideally, right.
[46:05 –> 46:25] But when we feel like anxious or fearful, like, oh, I gotta say something, because I’ve been with brothers who are like, oh, like, maybe they’ll never know Jesus if I don’t step out, like, well, it just doesn’t have the feel for them of that. And, and Jesus is Lord and he’s caring for this person. He’s holding this person in the palm of his hand and like, is he asking me?
[46:25 –> 46:50] And I need to be faithful, but if but if it can be discerned. Well, because sometimes it’s not all about correcting. What about just being present and making a connection and having a different type of encounter? I just what’s what’s moving it is my big thing is Lord, or is it our insecurities and anxieties? And if I feel like it’s all on me, I just don’t think the Lord works like that.
[46:51 –> 47:09] That might be a bold thing, but I just I think it’s a really good discernment and question we have to make when we, because I yeah. Anyway, I think I would experience why I would I have chosen to to act similar that I, when I, when I’m out in public, I just want to make connections and see what the Lord does.
[47:09 –> 47:43] But I don’t have this drive, to necessarily make everyone Catholic, or kind of force that all the time. Yeah. I’m in a similar boat on a similar travelator as you guys. Come on. So you ended there? And there’s for me, the simple, the simple thing is like nuts personal where, like, if somebody approaches me. So Jehovah’s Witness comes out of his way to walk from behind his table and like, hey, brother, let me talk to you about whatever it is like, I’ll engage him in conversation for sure.
[Editor’s note: Evangelization belongs to the whole Church. How each person takes part depends on their calling and circumstances.]
[47:43 –> 48:11] For sure, you know? And, I’ll stand up for the truths of the faith. And due to the Catholic Church. But, I’m going to take that as, like, okay, the Lord desired this thing or like, you know, like this space opened up in this way, but I’m not going to search it out, like, to mean I’m not going to feel any sort of failure or if I just walk past them, you know, if I smile and say, have a good day, that’s not me being complicit in their Jehovah’s Witness.
[48:11 –> 48:36] And I think for now, the person who struggles with this as far as like, yeah, they experience things heavily is and this is the innocence point, just like what’s driving it and and is like, is the Lord asking you to have a conversation with every blessed person who doesn’t believe in the face? You know, I mean, and, and this is a book question I ask often too, with like, what’s the why?
[48:36 –> 48:57] Like, why are we doing it, you know? And then again, you could point to the gospel mandate. You could point to like these different things. But like, is this like, is the Lord legitimately asking you? And some people are very gifted in apologetics or some people have like, this is like a passionate thing for them. And maybe the Lord is at is asking for them to like, stop and have these two hour, three hour conversation with Jehovah’s Witness.
[48:57 –> 49:18] But my own personal experience, and not to make it so much about this example, is sometimes. Yeah, it could be a conversation that changes things. But but oftentimes it’s like the consistency or the presence of a person or just like a simple yeah, it’s usually smaller than what we think. And it’s often the Lord that brings things about, you know, as opposed to our own efforts.
[49:18 –> 49:41] And so not to dismiss that people shouldn’t be be talking to other people as far as the truth of the faith. But ultimately, like what’s like what’s driving your desire to to correct what’s driving your desire to to tell people about the gospel? If it’s the Lord, then he’ll bring it about in ways that are good. If it’s yourself, it’ll be something that’s clunky, something that’s just not.
[49:41 –> 50:02] Yeah, it’ll feel more like yourself as opposed to being led by the Lord. And so they just want people to step away from this fact of like, or this idea that, like, I have to drive this, I have to be the one who who makes this happen. Otherwise, I’m not feeling the needs of the Lord where he’ll give you opportunities to fulfill them as he sees fit and as he, as you’re led by him.
[50:02 –> 50:24] So you can trust him in that space of even if even if I have a desire for apologetics, even if I have a desire for fill in the blank of correcting people. Like the Lord will bring it about for you in a place that’s good and that’s his and that’s that’s spirit. But as opposed to me, like, as opposed to like pointing back to me, like I did that also, what project guy who brought it back to the face?
[50:24 –> 50:51] That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to give it like a full, like a fullness to it. Like, certainly, you know, we, we know that, like, Saint Francis went to, preach Christ to the Sultan, right? Like there was, there is a there is, there is a gospel mandate to go out and make disciples of all nations.
[50:51 –> 51:27] And we see this in Saint Francis, but I do think that there is there is like a space again, for the discernment, for the why question. But going about this all like kind of in the place of like, again, like confidence, like confidence in the Lord and his goodness, accepting and being open to our sort of limitations, being discerning and like, you know, like when we are meeting these people, are they like the letter that’s that father read like, are they are they like encountering like endless mercy in our eyes, or are they encountering the sort of like a frustration in a fight?
[51:27 –> 51:44] And, and these are real kind of questions and also like, hey, you know what? Like there I do believe that there are there are people out there who are called and like anointed for apologetics and for lack of a better word, this kind of their gig, this is what they study. This is what they’re passionate about. This is where they’re fruitful in.
[51:44 –> 52:10] And like they’re going into Central Park and they’re having these conversations with a bunch of people, and it’s like converting people. And it’s like, I believe that exists. I believe also that, like people, God has called some people to a deep, profound, like, academic life, you know, and they’re spending all day in the library studying stuff, and then they preach it, you know, and I believe that I’ve been called to what I’ve been called to, and I believe I have a full plate and a full mission.
[52:10 –> 52:31] And you know what? Like, I just, I’m, if you will, like, I’m part of the body. I’m not the whole body. And I’m, like, called to serve Christ in the way that he is called me to serve. And I’ve called to till the keep and to even to guard and protect the garden and trust me, or whatever you want to say, or the flock entrusted to me.
[52:31 –> 53:03] But there’s other shepherds, there’s other gardens, there’s other flocks. And, and so, yeah, I have to be open. I have to be courageous. I have to be discerning. You know, I want to go into the world with, like, the heart of Christ, and if you will, the passion for Christ and proclaiming Christ that Francis had. But also I can I can, I can accept my littleness, my limitations, knowing that God doesn’t experience the same like littleness and like limitations and so it’s there’s a lot of situations where I can surrender to him.
[53:03 –> 53:17] And that’s and that’s often going to be, the right thing to do. Does that sound okay for today? Yeah. And I think we missed.
[53:17 –> 53:18] You know
[53:18 –> 53:25] Yeah you did it. You’re awesome. It’s good. It’s really good. Yeah.
[53:25 –> 53:48] Yeah. But I think like, there’s, Anyway, I didn’t like. Yeah, I like the Jehovah’s Witness one because that’s like where, like, there’s like a lot of people experience, like, real tension in this, especially sort of like, the zealous, you know, it’s like, I want, I want to correct and I want you to do something or whatever.
[53:48 –> 54:13] So cool. You know, prudence, wisdom, discernment, courage, all of it all together. Not just one of it by itself, you know? All right. Who is going to say our prayer? I got it, thanks. Father spirit, Jesus, we love you and adore you. And thank you. Thank you for your closeness. Thank you for just the grace to live the gospel, the call, the gospel, to live in union with you.
[54:13 –> 54:33] But also to, to to love our brothers and sisters and to be inspired. What that means in our daily life, to speak the truth, to love and truth, and to although all go deeper together. We just ask for the grace to be faithful in the present moment to exactly what you desire of us. We ask this all through Christ our Lord.
[54:33 –> 54:37] Amen, Amen, Amen.
[54:37 –> 54:42] A suddenly spirit. Thank you. Anything to add?
[54:42 –> 55:09] Hopefully Father Answers is back next time because it’s been a while. Eight weeks. Come on. Can you correct him for not being here? Yeah, totally. Call him out. Go ahead. Dang, Cynthia. Shout out Cynthia. Somebody else also wanted a shout out. I can’t remember right now. Sorry. The person I shout out to, the postulant and all their parents and, prayers for all the international guys trying to get visas.
[55:09 –> 55:39] Yeah, we definitely need to pray for them. For sure. What do we got? How many guys entered? Like seven. So. But 404 here. Yeah. And then three are waiting on visas. So any prayers for that would be great. Well Canada, Ireland, Ireland, in England, in England. All right. Yep. Cool cool cool. All right. See you next time. See you next time.
[55:39 –> 55:41] Peace, Angeles. Bye.
[55:41 –> 55:46] (Music)