[00:00:00 –> 00:00:01] Peace, everybody, Fr. Angelus here.
[00:00:01 –> 00:00:03] I just wanna say thank you for all of you
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[00:00:24 –> 00:00:27] Thank you for walking with us.
[00:00:27 –> 00:00:28] (lighthearted music)
[00:00:28 –> 00:00:31] You’re listening to “The Poco a Poco Podcast” sponsored
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[00:00:33 –> 00:00:34] ♪ Poco a Poco ♪
[00:00:34 –> 00:00:37] (vocalist singing in Spanish)
[00:00:37 –> 00:00:38] ♪ And you know that’s who we are ♪
[00:00:38 –> 00:00:39] ♪ We make our way ♪
[00:00:39 –> 00:00:40] What’s up?
[00:00:40 –> 00:00:42] Hey, everybody, it’s Fr. Mark-Mary.
[00:00:42 –> 00:00:45] What’s up, everybody? Fr. Innocent here.
[00:00:45 –> 00:00:47] What’s up? Fr. PT here.
[00:00:47 –> 00:00:48] And this is- – Hey, hey.
[00:00:48 –> 00:00:50] “Poco a Poco Podcast.” – Oh.
[00:00:50 –> 00:00:52] Whoa, whoa, you didn’t even let me say hello.
[00:00:52 –> 00:00:53] Oh, really?
[00:00:53 –> 00:00:54] Fr. Angelus here. (laughs)
[00:00:54 –> 00:00:56] Fr. Angelus is still here.
[00:00:56 –> 00:00:58] So not used to me being on.
[00:00:58 –> 00:00:59] Here we are.
[00:01:00 –> 00:01:02] My bad.
[00:01:02 –> 00:01:03] I was- – You’re
[00:01:03 –> 00:01:04] (father laughs) totally forgiven.
[00:01:04 –> 00:01:06] I think I was thinking about…
[00:01:06 –> 00:01:08] We just had Fr. Gregory on,
[00:01:08 –> 00:01:10] so I was just thinking about that.
[00:01:11 –> 00:01:12] And that was fun.
[00:01:12 –> 00:01:13] I’m glad that worked.
[00:01:13 –> 00:01:14] Yeah, it was gift.
[00:01:14 –> 00:01:15] Yeah. – Yeah, super fun.
[00:01:17 –> 00:01:19] He’s basically our age.
[00:01:19 –> 00:01:21] I think he’s a year or two younger
[00:01:21 –> 00:01:24] than even the youngest of us.
[00:01:25 –> 00:01:29] But I like that he can speak the same language.
[00:01:29 –> 00:01:30] Mm-hmm. – Yeah, totally.
[00:01:30 –> 00:01:31] Anyway, go ahead.
[00:01:32 –> 00:01:34] He’s so profoundly smart
[00:01:34 –> 00:01:36] and he has everything he needs in that.
[00:01:36 –> 00:01:41] But I was just moved by his, I guess, connectability and…
[00:01:42 –> 00:01:43] He’s just so-
[00:01:43 –> 00:01:44] Totally.
[00:01:44 –> 00:01:45] He has like the sports thing.
[00:01:45 –> 00:01:47] He has such a way to talk about life, and he’s very funny,
[00:01:47 –> 00:01:49] and he’s kinda dry humor.
[00:01:49 –> 00:01:50] I just, yeah.
[00:01:50 –> 00:01:51] I haven’t spent a ton of time with him,
[00:01:51 –> 00:01:52] so I was just super moved
[00:01:52 –> 00:01:55] and really liked hanging out with him.
[00:01:55 –> 00:01:56] Yeah.
[00:01:57 –> 00:02:00] So a couple of big events here, big things to celebrate.
[00:02:00 –> 00:02:03] Number one, Fr. PT has joined the club.
[00:02:05 –> 00:02:06] What club?
[00:02:06 –> 00:02:09] We’re all above 40. – (laughs) Yeah, PT.
[00:02:09 –> 00:02:10] We’re all in our 40s now.
[00:02:10 –> 00:02:11] Oh, yeah. (father laughs)
[00:02:11 –> 00:02:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. – Come on, dude.
[00:02:12 –> 00:02:13] Come on.
[00:02:13 –> 00:02:14] I’m there.
[00:02:14 –> 00:02:15] I feel 40.
[00:02:15 –> 00:02:17] Well, actually, I’m 40. (father laughs)
[00:02:17 –> 00:02:19] I don’t know if I actually feel it, but yeah.
[00:02:19 –> 00:02:21] So thank you guys for welcoming into the club.
[00:02:21 –> 00:02:22] Appreciate it.
[00:02:22 –> 00:02:23] Yeah, it’s great
[00:02:23 –> 00:02:24] to have you here. – Shout-out to all the
[00:02:24 –> 00:02:25] 40-plus people out there.
[00:02:27 –> 00:02:28] It’s interesting.
[00:02:28 –> 00:02:31] It’s funny because we all met you
[00:02:31 –> 00:02:35] when you were, at the oldest, 22.
[00:02:36 –> 00:02:37] Yeah.
[00:02:37 –> 00:02:39] You were postulant at 22?
[00:02:39 –> 00:02:40] I was postulant at 22, yeah.
[00:02:40 –> 00:02:41] Gosh, that’s wild.
[00:02:42 –> 00:02:45] And did you meet him even before that, Fr. Innocent?
[00:02:45 –> 00:02:46] You probably met him maybe before he was a postulant.
[00:02:46 –> 00:02:48] I met you on your two-week visit, bro.
[00:02:48 –> 00:02:49] I don’t even remember that.
[00:02:49 –> 00:02:50] Did you?
[00:02:50 –> 00:02:51] Yeah, I was a novice, yeah.
[00:02:51 –> 00:02:51] Yeah, must have, yeah.
[00:02:51 –> 00:02:54] I remember. – So I was 21 at that point.
[00:02:54 –> 00:02:56] Two-week visit, is that true?
[00:02:56 –> 00:02:57] Or some other visit. – No.
[00:02:57 –> 00:02:58] I remember- – If I was two-week visit,
[00:02:58 –> 00:03:00] I still would’ve been 22
[00:03:00 –> 00:03:01] ’cause of my birthday’s in April, yeah.
[00:03:01 –> 00:03:02] Yeah.
[00:03:02 –> 00:03:03] That is wild. – Do you know we have
[00:03:03 –> 00:03:05] a picture of you when you’re a teenager on our refrigerator
[00:03:05 –> 00:03:06] at the front? – Yeah, I know.
[00:03:06 –> 00:03:08] There’s a lot of pictures out there of me.
[00:03:08 –> 00:03:09] It’s just crazy.
[00:03:09 –> 00:03:10] There’s a guy next to you that kinda looked
[00:03:10 –> 00:03:12] like it could be Fr. Mark-Mary when he was younger.
[00:03:12 –> 00:03:14] And so we were joking. (fathers laughing)
[00:03:14 –> 00:03:16] We had postulant dishes with the postulants the other day,
[00:03:16 –> 00:03:17] and they were like, “You should show it on the podcast.”
[00:03:17 –> 00:03:19] I was like, “That would be awesome.”
[00:03:19 –> 00:03:20] Yeah.
[00:03:20 –> 00:03:22] On the all-audio podcast?
[00:03:26 –> 00:03:28] But also, the kid in the video is probably all…
[00:03:28 –> 00:03:32] He is already taller than I am now, so-
[00:03:32 –> 00:03:34] That’s true. (fathers laughing)
[00:03:34 –> 00:03:35] You mean the picture?
[00:03:35 –> 00:03:38] But to know you from 22 to 40,
[00:03:38 –> 00:03:40] when you think about it like that, it’s pretty wild.
[00:03:40 –> 00:03:41] Yeah.
[00:03:41 –> 00:03:43] But I mean, it’s all of our experiences, right?
[00:03:43 –> 00:03:44] I’ve known all y’all- – I know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:03:44 –> 00:03:46] For like 18 years or 17 years. (laughs)
[00:03:46 –> 00:03:48] Yeah. – When you think about it.
[00:03:48 –> 00:03:50] It’s just wild to think about it.
[00:03:50 –> 00:03:50] It’s a long time.
[00:03:50 –> 00:03:51] Yeah.
[00:03:51 –> 00:03:52] It is a long time.
[00:03:52 –> 00:03:54] Do you remember that conversation we had about,
[00:03:54 –> 00:03:55] would you be friends with me
[00:03:55 –> 00:03:56] if we were in high school together?
[00:03:56 –> 00:03:58] (all laughing)
[00:03:58 –> 00:03:59] Remind me how that went.
[00:04:01 –> 00:04:03] Me and Fr. Innocent would definitely probably not
[00:04:03 –> 00:04:05] have the honor of having you and Fr. Mark-Mary
[00:04:05 –> 00:04:06] wanna be friends with us.
[00:04:06 –> 00:04:08] Oh, that’s right, yeah. – But thank God for the gift
[00:04:08 –> 00:04:08] of brotherhood
[00:04:08 –> 00:04:09] and religious life. – Yeah, thank God you’re stuck
[00:04:09 –> 00:04:10] with us.
[00:04:10 –> 00:04:11] (all laughing)
[00:04:11 –> 00:04:13] But I don’t know, there’s a grace given
[00:04:13 –> 00:04:15] that you would have to get over your,
[00:04:16 –> 00:04:17] us being not as cool as you two.
[00:04:17 –> 00:04:20] See, I don’t think that’s totally, that one, it’s true.
[00:04:20 –> 00:04:21] ‘Cause I think, weren’t you guys friends
[00:04:21 –> 00:04:23] with everybody in your high school?
[00:04:23 –> 00:04:25] Like in your class? (father laughs)
[00:04:25 –> 00:04:26] I don’t know.
[00:04:26 –> 00:04:28] I don’t know if we would’ve like hung out
[00:04:28 –> 00:04:30] ’cause you play sports, I played sports.
[00:04:30 –> 00:04:32] There’s like that common thing there.
[00:04:32 –> 00:04:33] Yeah.
[00:04:33 –> 00:04:35] We would’ve at least been nice to each other.
[00:04:35 –> 00:04:36] “What up” in the hallways. – Yeah.
[00:04:36 –> 00:04:38] I know, but the funny thing is,
[00:04:38 –> 00:04:40] is that us four, we actually like each other a lot.
[00:04:40 –> 00:04:42] Yeah, yeah. (father laughs)
[00:04:42 –> 00:04:44] Like in our life, 18 years in, whatever,
[00:04:44 –> 00:04:46] we actually like each other a lot
[00:04:46 –> 00:04:49] that we don’t hang out ’cause we have to, right?
[00:04:49 –> 00:04:51] So that’s just really funny. – Right, right?
[00:04:51 –> 00:04:51] When we’ve grown (father laughs)
[00:04:51 –> 00:04:52] and matured, you’re like, “Wow,
[00:04:52 –> 00:04:55] you guys are really my friends.”
[00:04:56 –> 00:04:57] Yeah, this is awkward, but-
[00:04:58 –> 00:04:59] But yeah. – Just some things
[00:04:59 –> 00:05:01] have changed since the last time we were together.
[00:05:01 –> 00:05:04] Mm-hmm, specifically you. – And…
[00:05:04 –> 00:05:04] Yeah. (fathers laughing)
[00:05:04 –> 00:05:07] I don’t really like you guys anymore.
[00:05:07 –> 00:05:08] All right.
[00:05:10 –> 00:05:11] What else were we gonna talk about?
[00:05:11 –> 00:05:12] Sorry to interrupt you guys. – He turned 40.
[00:05:12 –> 00:05:15] I wanna know. – We gotta celebrate 40.
[00:05:15 –> 00:05:15] We did it.
[00:05:17 –> 00:05:19] There was something else that you did.
[00:05:19 –> 00:05:20] Marathon.
[00:05:20 –> 00:05:21] Well, yeah, we’re gonna get…
[00:05:21 –> 00:05:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s the last thing.
[00:05:22 –> 00:05:23] Oh, sorry.
[00:05:23 –> 00:05:24] What was the other thing? (father chuckles)
[00:05:24 –> 00:05:25] I don’t know.
[00:05:26 –> 00:05:27] This is great.
[00:05:27 –> 00:05:31] Anyway, so congratulations on-
[00:05:31 –> 00:05:33] Running a marathon. – Running your first marathon.
[00:05:33 –> 00:05:35] Thank you, thank you.
[00:05:35 –> 00:05:35] We did it.
[00:05:37 –> 00:05:38] It was the best of times.
[00:05:38 –> 00:05:39] It was the worst of times.
[00:05:39 –> 00:05:41] I said this I think the other day to you, Fr. Innocent,
[00:05:41 –> 00:05:43] but I hope it’s the hardest thing I do this year,
[00:05:43 –> 00:05:45] (chuckles) you know?
[00:05:46 –> 00:05:49] Yeah, and it was a fun experience.
[00:05:49 –> 00:05:52] And I ran it this last Saturday or Sunday.
[00:05:52 –> 00:05:54] But up to that point, I only run 14 miles.
[00:05:54 –> 00:05:56] And so typically, for your marathon training,
[00:05:56 –> 00:05:57] you’re supposed to run up to 20.
[00:05:57 –> 00:05:59] And I mean, just miles on your feet,
[00:05:59 –> 00:06:04] but yeah, so like mile 17 on stunk, but it was good.
[00:06:04 –> 00:06:05] It was good.
[00:06:05 –> 00:06:09] It’s good to have finished and good to just do it, and so.
[00:06:09 –> 00:06:10] How you feeling now?
[00:06:10 –> 00:06:10] Great, great.
[00:06:10 –> 00:06:12] It’s like three or four days after.
[00:06:12 –> 00:06:15] And probably by day two I was walking normally again.
[00:06:18 –> 00:06:20] Immediately after, it’s like the duck walk you do
[00:06:20 –> 00:06:23] ’cause your legs just can’t move in the way
[00:06:23 –> 00:06:24] that they should.
[00:06:24 –> 00:06:27] Then the next day after, there’s still residual pain.
[00:06:27 –> 00:06:31] But yeah, Tuesday, I was walking a lot better,
[00:06:31 –> 00:06:32] and then, yeah, now it’s normal
[00:06:32 –> 00:06:35] and I could probably continue running right now,
[00:06:35 –> 00:06:37] but I’ma take a week off.
[00:06:37 –> 00:06:38] I think I deserve it.
[00:06:38 –> 00:06:39] Yeah, you do. – Yes, you do.
[00:06:39 –> 00:06:41] And so that’s it, but yeah.
[00:06:41 –> 00:06:43] You’re gonna do another one?
[00:06:43 –> 00:06:45] Yeah, hopefully in November, hopefully.
[00:06:45 –> 00:06:47] We’ll see. – Do Wildman, bro.
[00:06:47 –> 00:06:48] Did anybody do it with ya?
[00:06:48 –> 00:06:50] No, nobody did it with me.
[00:06:50 –> 00:06:52] Yeah, it was a cool experience.
[00:06:52 –> 00:06:55] It was in Long Island and so it was around my high school.
[00:06:55 –> 00:06:59] And yeah, it’s just like places that I known,
[00:06:59 –> 00:07:01] running past, yeah, different parts,
[00:07:01 –> 00:07:03] and I was like, “Oh, this is kinda neat.”
[00:07:03 –> 00:07:05] But yeah, there’s just a lot of things
[00:07:05 –> 00:07:07] that I’ll probably share eventually at some point time
[00:07:07 –> 00:07:10] in this podcast or just reflections and…
[00:07:10 –> 00:07:12] But yeah, it’s a awesome, awesome experience.
[00:07:12 –> 00:07:13] Tough but beautiful.
[00:07:14 –> 00:07:15] Did you hit a wall?
[00:07:15 –> 00:07:16] Is that a thing?
[00:07:16 –> 00:07:18] Yeah, yeah, by 17, my legs…
[00:07:18 –> 00:07:21] So my breathing was fine, my heart rate was fine,
[00:07:21 –> 00:07:23] but then my legs just didn’t wanna cooperate
[00:07:23 –> 00:07:24] in the way that they should.
[00:07:24 –> 00:07:27] My brain was sending signals to my legs
[00:07:27 –> 00:07:29] to move or move faster,
[00:07:29 –> 00:07:32] and my legs were like, “Nah, we’re good.” (laughs)
[00:07:32 –> 00:07:34] And so up to that point,
[00:07:34 –> 00:07:35] it would’ve been like constant running.
[00:07:35 –> 00:07:38] And then like at 17, I had to stop,
[00:07:38 –> 00:07:41] take a little bit extended period of breaks
[00:07:41 –> 00:07:44] at the water station or walk for like a minute
[00:07:44 –> 00:07:45] and then just continue running.
[00:07:45 –> 00:07:48] And so yeah, so like 17 I would say is the wall,
[00:07:48 –> 00:07:51] and then just miles- – That’s quite a long…
[00:07:51 –> 00:07:53] That’s a lot of miles before you have to walk.
[00:07:53 –> 00:07:53] Yeah, that’s the crazy thing.
[00:07:53 –> 00:07:57] I was thinking like I still have nine more miles to go.
[00:07:57 –> 00:07:58] (father laughs)
[00:07:58 –> 00:08:02] And a lot of it’s just mental, you know?
[00:08:02 –> 00:08:03] ‘Cause up to this point,
[00:08:03 –> 00:08:05] the longest race I ever run is a half marathon.
[00:08:05 –> 00:08:08] And so at like, whatever, a little bit under two hours,
[00:08:08 –> 00:08:10] I finished my half.
[00:08:10 –> 00:08:11] And I was thinking,
[00:08:11 –> 00:08:15] I have another half marathon to run, (chuckles) you know?
[00:08:15 –> 00:08:17] So like two hours of running to go.
[00:08:17 –> 00:08:20] But yeah, the wall’s a real thing
[00:08:20 –> 00:08:24] and it just takes like mental fortitude
[00:08:24 –> 00:08:26] and exertion to get to the end.
[00:08:26 –> 00:08:27] But like it’s one of those things
[00:08:27 –> 00:08:29] where I’m not not gonna finish.
[00:08:29 –> 00:08:32] And whether I have to crawl across the finish line
[00:08:32 –> 00:08:34] or whatever, just I’m gonna make it, so.
[00:08:34 –> 00:08:37] And thanks be to God I didn’t have to crawl, but.
[00:08:38 –> 00:08:40] That could have been a great video, though.
[00:08:41 –> 00:08:42] Inspirational video. (laughs)
[00:08:42 –> 00:08:43] Yeah.
[00:08:43 –> 00:08:44] You don’t wanna be the guy,
[00:08:44 –> 00:08:47] like there’s the inspirational videos of one guy falls down
[00:08:47 –> 00:08:49] and another person like picks him up and walks him across.
[00:08:49 –> 00:08:50] Yeah, you don’t wanna be
[00:08:50 –> 00:08:51] the guy that falls. – You always wanna be the guy
[00:08:51 –> 00:08:52] who like picks the guy up- – Helps.
[00:08:52 –> 00:08:53] And walks him across. (fathers laughing)
[00:08:53 –> 00:08:54] You don’t want to be the guy getting carried.
[00:08:54 –> 00:08:55] Mm-hmm.
[00:08:56 –> 00:08:59] But also, the weekend before, you ran a half marathon.
[00:08:59 –> 00:09:00] I did.
[00:09:00 –> 00:09:02] And we were together, and I was kinda asking about this,
[00:09:02 –> 00:09:03] and somebody else was there
[00:09:03 –> 00:09:05] that kinda was making me feel stupid,
[00:09:08 –> 00:09:11] is that normal to do literally like a week before
[00:09:11 –> 00:09:12] to do a half marathon?
[00:09:12 –> 00:09:13] No.
[00:09:13 –> 00:09:14] Right, you should be tapering
[00:09:14 –> 00:09:16] at that point normally. – Yeah, yeah.
[00:09:16 –> 00:09:20] That was like a, it was a scheduling thing,
[00:09:20 –> 00:09:22] meaning I promised…
[00:09:22 –> 00:09:23] I saw that, too.
[00:09:23 –> 00:09:26] I promised to run this half marathon with a buddy,
[00:09:26 –> 00:09:27] and then it just so happened
[00:09:27 –> 00:09:30] that the marathon fell the weekend after, and so.
[00:09:30 –> 00:09:32] And the half marathon, anyway, it was hilly.
[00:09:32 –> 00:09:34] And so ideally, you’re resting,
[00:09:34 –> 00:09:36] or at least I think it’s a easier run of like 10 miles
[00:09:36 –> 00:09:38] or something like that.
[00:09:38 –> 00:09:40] And you’re not exerting a lot of effort.
[00:09:40 –> 00:09:44] But anyway, the half marathon was a thing that I did
[00:09:44 –> 00:09:47] that I probably shouldn’t have done the week before, and so.
[00:09:47 –> 00:09:48] But anyway,
[00:09:48 –> 00:09:50] you still did it. – Yeah, still did it.
[00:09:50 –> 00:09:50] Killed it.
[00:09:50 –> 00:09:53] Congratulations. – Yeah, thank you.
[00:09:53 –> 00:09:54] Let’s talk about something else.
[00:09:54 –> 00:09:55] Okay.
[00:09:55 –> 00:09:56] What are you talk… (father laughs)
[00:09:56 –> 00:09:57] What?
[00:09:57 –> 00:10:00] And also, kinda we’ll tie in a little bit to our video,
[00:10:00 –> 00:10:03] or our topic, is the other thing I was gonna say
[00:10:03 –> 00:10:05] is that for the first time, we’ll see if it ever happens,
[00:10:06 –> 00:10:07] we’ll just kinda keep it general,
[00:10:07 –> 00:10:12] but we’re all on a body of people.
[00:10:13 –> 00:10:15] We’re all on a council together,
[00:10:15 –> 00:10:18] which would involve, generally speaking, us all being
[00:10:18 –> 00:10:21] in the same room once a month for meetings.
[00:10:21 –> 00:10:22] Yeah.
[00:10:22 –> 00:10:23] Starting in- – That’ll be fun, huh?
[00:10:23 –> 00:10:23] New year. (father chuckles)
[00:10:23 –> 00:10:27] ‘Cause otherwise, we’re- – And PT, it’s gonna be great.
[00:10:27 –> 00:10:28] You got it. – Otherwise, it’s once
[00:10:28 –> 00:10:29] every three or four months.
[00:10:29 –> 00:10:31] The great part of it is being with y’all,
[00:10:31 –> 00:10:36] I’ll just say that, of these meetings, and so.
[00:10:36 –> 00:10:37] (father chuckles)
[00:10:37 –> 00:10:39] Off air, bro, we can talk about attitude.
[00:10:39 –> 00:10:41] Fr. Gregory talked about it. (father chuckles)
[00:10:41 –> 00:10:42] It’s not necessarily what happens,
[00:10:42 –> 00:10:43] but the attitude, you know?
[00:10:43 –> 00:10:44] So we’ll have to navigate- – Oh, you’re gonna give
[00:10:44 –> 00:10:46] the attitude lesson?
[00:10:46 –> 00:10:46] (fathers laughing)
[00:10:46 –> 00:10:49] Bro, I have great attitude in those things.
[00:10:49 –> 00:10:50] I don’t talk.
[00:10:50 –> 00:10:50] I mean, that’s kind of
[00:10:50 –> 00:10:53] how I approach those things. – All right, yeah, yeah.
[00:10:53 –> 00:10:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:10:54 –> 00:10:55] All right.
[00:10:55 –> 00:10:56] Well, don’t, let’s…
[00:10:56 –> 00:10:59] (laughs) I was gonna bring up speech class from second year
[00:10:59 –> 00:11:01] or that first year of seminary.
[00:11:01 –> 00:11:02] Mm.
[00:11:02 –> 00:11:04] Deep cut. – That was great.
[00:11:04 –> 00:11:04] I kinda have the same.
[00:11:04 –> 00:11:06] It’s a similar attitude of like being in class.
[00:11:06 –> 00:11:08] Fr. Xavier would always make fun of me
[00:11:08 –> 00:11:12] ’cause I’m like there, but I’m kind of like multitasking
[00:11:12 –> 00:11:14] and doing other things. (laughs)
[00:11:14 –> 00:11:17] And Fr. Xavier’s very focused and like very tuned in
[00:11:17 –> 00:11:18] and I’m just not,
[00:11:18 –> 00:11:22] so that’s usually how I handle things. (laughs)
[00:11:22 –> 00:11:25] I’m typically the find a friend, sit next to them,
[00:11:25 –> 00:11:27] and distract the friend and make side comments
[00:11:27 –> 00:11:28] as much as I can (father laughs)
[00:11:28 –> 00:11:30] and be disruptive to the overall flow, so.
[00:11:30 –> 00:11:31] And I think I felt like I did that.
[00:11:31 –> 00:11:32] I mean, not disruptive,
[00:11:32 –> 00:11:34] but I sat next to you, Fr. Mark-Mary,
[00:11:34 –> 00:11:36] and it was helpful for me. (laughs)
[00:11:36 –> 00:11:37] During seminary?
[00:11:37 –> 00:11:38] Not during seminary. – Oh, the house.
[00:11:38 –> 00:11:39] Oh, yeah, oh, okay.
[00:11:39 –> 00:11:40] During the meeting, yeah. – The meeting,
[00:11:40 –> 00:11:41] yeah, yeah, yeah. (father laughs)
[00:11:41 –> 00:11:42] During seminary- – And also-
[00:11:42 –> 00:11:43] I had other guys in the back when you guys
[00:11:43 –> 00:11:45] were in the other corner. – Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:11:45 –> 00:11:46] Bad boy island.
[00:11:46 –> 00:11:47] We’ll talk about this. (father chuckles)
[00:11:47 –> 00:11:48] This is all perfect.
[00:11:48 –> 00:11:49] It’s gonna fit with the episode.
[00:11:49 –> 00:11:53] But we’re not gonna make this too big of a thing
[00:11:53 –> 00:11:55] ’cause it’s a little bit sensitive.
[00:11:55 –> 00:11:56] Not that sensitive.
[00:11:56 –> 00:12:01] But one of the things with Fr. PT is he does things
[00:12:04 –> 00:12:07] that educate me and teach me.
[00:12:07 –> 00:12:11] And seeing the way you entered the room to that meeting
[00:12:11 –> 00:12:13] was like a very…
[00:12:14 –> 00:12:15] What’s it called?
[00:12:15 –> 00:12:17] Like you hold up a mirror, and it like, convicting.
[00:12:17 –> 00:12:18] It was very convicting.
[00:12:18 –> 00:12:21] You were like going in, dappin’ everybody up,
[00:12:21 –> 00:12:24] saying hello, being (chuckles) warm and joyful.
[00:12:24 –> 00:12:26] And I was like, “Oh, well,
[00:12:26 –> 00:12:29] I guess that’s how some people come into meetings
[00:12:29 –> 00:12:30] and rooms.” (fathers laughing)
[00:12:30 –> 00:12:32] That was interesting.
[00:12:32 –> 00:12:33] That was good to see.
[00:12:34 –> 00:12:36] So anyway, you were already making a difference.
[00:12:36 –> 00:12:37] Thank you.
[00:12:38 –> 00:12:39] I’m happy that’s the impression you left
[00:12:39 –> 00:12:42] ’cause the interior disposition was not the same.
[00:12:42 –> 00:12:43] Well, that was before the meeting started.
[00:12:43 –> 00:12:44] That’s true.
[00:12:44 –> 00:12:46] (Fr. Mark-Mary laughs)
[00:12:46 –> 00:12:49] But like what I’m gonna talk about here today,
[00:12:49 –> 00:12:52] and I appreciate you guys letting me sort of lead it here
[00:12:52 –> 00:12:54] ’cause it might seem a little bit abstract or vague,
[00:12:54 –> 00:12:55] but I’ll make some- – You always lead it-
[00:12:55 –> 00:12:57] Sense of it. – Just for the record.
[00:12:57 –> 00:12:58] (father laughs)
[00:12:58 –> 00:13:00] But sometimes it’s more immediately obvious
[00:13:00 –> 00:13:01] what we’re gonna be doing.
[00:13:03 –> 00:13:08] But also, don’t forget, when I asked if anybody wanted
[00:13:08 –> 00:13:10] to lead episodes, we got one response,
[00:13:10 –> 00:13:12] so- – Hey, I did my part, bro.
[00:13:12 –> 00:13:13] I know, I’m saying I’m agreeing with you.
[00:13:13 –> 00:13:15] I’m ready. – I’m just-
[00:13:15 –> 00:13:16] I’m usually better if you ask.
[00:13:16 –> 00:13:18] If you have a topic that you want me to lead
[00:13:18 –> 00:13:19] and you’re like, “Hey, Fr., could you do this?”
[00:13:19 –> 00:13:20] But-
[00:13:20 –> 00:13:21] Good, we’re gonna get there eventually,
[00:13:21 –> 00:13:22] I think- – Well-
[00:13:22 –> 00:13:23] Internet (indistinct). – That’s pretty vague
[00:13:23 –> 00:13:24] still, too, so anyway.
[00:13:24 –> 00:13:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:13:25 –> 00:13:26] (fathers chuckling)
[00:13:26 –> 00:13:28] By the way, while Fr. PT was talking,
[00:13:28 –> 00:13:30] one of Fr. Angelus’ servants just brought him
[00:13:30 –> 00:13:31] a freshly brewed cup of coffee.
[00:13:31 –> 00:13:32] (fathers chuckling)
[00:13:32 –> 00:13:35] As soon as I put mute and he came in and gave me coffee,
[00:13:35 –> 00:13:36] I was like, “They’re gonna mention that.”
[00:13:36 –> 00:13:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:13:38 –> 00:13:39] Rightly so.
[00:13:39 –> 00:13:40] So I’m gonna start.
[00:13:40 –> 00:13:43] I’m gonna start far and then work up to the topic
[00:13:43 –> 00:13:46] is I think all of us are familiar
[00:13:46 –> 00:13:51] with like the Navy SEAL training BUD/S Hell Week, right?
[00:13:52 –> 00:13:54] You guys have all heard of that.
[00:13:54 –> 00:13:55] Yup.
[00:13:55 –> 00:13:56] Mm-hmm, oh, yeah. – Yes, yeah.
[00:13:56 –> 00:13:57] Yup.
[00:13:57 –> 00:14:01] And generally, some of those books have kinda gone
[00:14:01 –> 00:14:04] through the friary, just some of the Navy, like some story,
[00:14:05 –> 00:14:07] even if it’s like Jocko leadership stuff.
[00:14:07 –> 00:14:08] But almost all of the books,
[00:14:08 –> 00:14:10] ’cause they understand what’s interesting,
[00:14:10 –> 00:14:13] have some sort of beginning that talks about the BUD/S,
[00:14:13 –> 00:14:15] which is like the very, very…
[00:14:15 –> 00:14:16] Well, we just could stick on Hell Week.
[00:14:16 –> 00:14:19] But it’s like this very, very intense physical training,
[00:14:19 –> 00:14:22] kind of this war on attrition
[00:14:22 –> 00:14:24] to see who kinda has the mental…
[00:14:24 –> 00:14:25] It’s the first filter
[00:14:25 –> 00:14:26] to see who kinda has the mental toughness
[00:14:26 –> 00:14:30] to start to go on to the rest of some
[00:14:30 –> 00:14:33] of the training and formation, et cetera.
[00:14:33 –> 00:14:36] And it’s very much depicted as like the hardest,
[00:14:36 –> 00:14:38] most painful endurance thing.
[00:14:38 –> 00:14:40] Everything with the getting wet in San D.
[00:14:40 –> 00:14:41] where you go down in the water
[00:14:41 –> 00:14:42] and you roll around and it’s cold,
[00:14:42 –> 00:14:44] and then you’re swimming, and then you’re jogging,
[00:14:44 –> 00:14:46] and then you’re not really eating,
[00:14:46 –> 00:14:48] or you’re not really sleeping.
[00:14:48 –> 00:14:50] And it’s just like this whole thing.
[00:14:50 –> 00:14:52] And when you read about it or you kinda understand it,
[00:14:52 –> 00:14:54] you’re like, “Yeah, okay, I see.
[00:14:54 –> 00:14:55] That would be like…”
[00:14:55 –> 00:14:57] There’s just a reason that these superstar athletes
[00:14:57 –> 00:15:01] and endurance people, like so many people just tap out.
[00:15:01 –> 00:15:03] But have you guys ever seen a video of it?
[00:15:04 –> 00:15:05] Yeah, I have.
[00:15:05 –> 00:15:07] Yeah, I watched, yeah.
[00:15:07 –> 00:15:09] I think so. – But if you just watch some
[00:15:09 –> 00:15:12] of the short training clips, at least my experience of it
[00:15:12 –> 00:15:17] is it’s like, oh, it doesn’t really look that bad.
[00:15:17 –> 00:15:22] ‘Cause what you see, it’s like some guys like rolling
[00:15:24 –> 00:15:25] in the water for a little bit.
[00:15:25 –> 00:15:29] Or I don’t know, just going on a jog.
[00:15:29 –> 00:15:30] There’s something about it,
[00:15:30 –> 00:15:32] and this was my sort of immediate experience,
[00:15:32 –> 00:15:34] it’s like what I’d heard about
[00:15:34 –> 00:15:36] and what I expected when I actually saw it,
[00:15:36 –> 00:15:39] and it just kinda fell a little bit flat.
[00:15:43 –> 00:15:47] But obviously, my perception there is off.
[00:15:47 –> 00:15:51] And part of what’s off is a short little clip
[00:15:51 –> 00:15:55] doesn’t do justice to the whole week-long buildup
[00:15:55 –> 00:15:57] of the pain and the chafing and the cold
[00:15:57 –> 00:15:59] and the lack of sleep.
[00:15:59 –> 00:16:01] There is a part on the outside
[00:16:01 –> 00:16:04] just seeing like a little thing of people swimming
[00:16:04 –> 00:16:05] or whatever it is.
[00:16:05 –> 00:16:10] It doesn’t immediately look as painful or difficult.
[00:16:11 –> 00:16:15] A different example that might make sense is…
[00:16:15 –> 00:16:17] Trying to think of another one.
[00:16:17 –> 00:16:18] The first one that comes to mind
[00:16:18 –> 00:16:20] is I’ve kinda recently learned,
[00:16:20 –> 00:16:22] and this is a little bit more on the nose,
[00:16:22 –> 00:16:25] of the whole like misophonia thing.
[00:16:25 –> 00:16:26] Do you guys know what that is?
[00:16:26 –> 00:16:27] No.
[00:16:27 –> 00:16:29] But you do.
[00:16:29 –> 00:16:32] So this is the whole thing where these people,
[00:16:32 –> 00:16:35] certain sounds make people get very angry.
[00:16:35 –> 00:16:37] Mm.
[00:16:37 –> 00:16:38] I do know about that now. – Right?
[00:16:38 –> 00:16:39] Yes. – Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:16:39 –> 00:16:40] This is the class thing, right?
[00:16:40 –> 00:16:44] So it’s like I’ve learned…
[00:16:44 –> 00:16:45] Like if I’m with somebody in a car
[00:16:45 –> 00:16:47] and they’re like chewing gum,
[00:16:48 –> 00:16:52] it feels like they are insulting me
[00:16:52 –> 00:16:56] and doing very grave and intentional harm to me.
[00:16:57 –> 00:16:58] (father chuckles)
[00:16:58 –> 00:17:00] That’s the interior emotional experience.
[00:17:00 –> 00:17:01] But I’m not alone in this.
[00:17:01 –> 00:17:03] There’s this whole world of people
[00:17:03 –> 00:17:06] who have this sort of type of experience.
[00:17:06 –> 00:17:09] But what’s funny is I was kind of going…
[00:17:09 –> 00:17:10] ‘Cause I just kind of,
[00:17:10 –> 00:17:12] I’ve had this subjective experience of it.
[00:17:12 –> 00:17:12] I didn’t know what it was.
[00:17:12 –> 00:17:13] And then I learned, oh, it’s a thing,
[00:17:13 –> 00:17:15] so I went down a rabbit hole.
[00:17:15 –> 00:17:18] And it’s funny ’cause there’s this video out there
[00:17:18 –> 00:17:23] of this woman on her lunch break at work in her car.
[00:17:23 –> 00:17:25] And she’s talking about how she was at lunch.
[00:17:25 –> 00:17:27] And she’s kinda like patting herself on the back.
[00:17:27 –> 00:17:29] I think the idea is like she was at lunch
[00:17:29 –> 00:17:30] and the people were eating,
[00:17:30 –> 00:17:33] and it was like what was going on
[00:17:33 –> 00:17:36] and how they were eating, whatever, it was driving her nuts.
[00:17:36 –> 00:17:39] And so she just went and sat in her car and ate by herself.
[00:17:39 –> 00:17:41] And this was sort of like a victory.
[00:17:41 –> 00:17:42] “I didn’t blow up, I didn’t snap.
[00:17:42 –> 00:17:43] I just kinda went and did this.”
[00:17:43 –> 00:17:48] And all of these people are like bashing her
[00:17:48 –> 00:17:49] in the comments.
[00:17:49 –> 00:17:51] All of these people are being like, “You’re so privileged
[00:17:51 –> 00:17:53] and you’re so this, and you’re so sensitive,
[00:17:53 –> 00:17:55] and you’re so blah, blah, blah.”
[00:17:55 –> 00:17:58] But for somebody who actually has that experience,
[00:17:58 –> 00:18:00] I’m like, I totally get it.
[00:18:00 –> 00:18:04] I totally get why that was something
[00:18:04 –> 00:18:09] that was driving you nuts and you had to just kinda…
[00:18:10 –> 00:18:11] It wasn’t just something
[00:18:11 –> 00:18:12] that you could’ve just like powered through
[00:18:12 –> 00:18:13] and been happy through.
[00:18:13 –> 00:18:14] You just had to get out of there.
[00:18:16 –> 00:18:21] But I get it only because I’ve actually had that.
[00:18:21 –> 00:18:22] I get it.
[00:18:22 –> 00:18:24] I’ve had the experience and so I get it from within.
[00:18:24 –> 00:18:26] But people on the outside, they just don’t.
[00:18:28 –> 00:18:30] It seems so trivial, and it’s small,
[00:18:30 –> 00:18:31] and it seems like you’re overreacting,
[00:18:31 –> 00:18:33] and you get missed, right?
[00:18:35 –> 00:18:37] And then maybe two more examples
[00:18:37 –> 00:18:39] just kinda to open it up is, Fr.,
[00:18:42 –> 00:18:45] I don’t know if you’ve ever heard somebody talk about,
[00:18:45 –> 00:18:46] I’m sure the guys have,
[00:18:46 –> 00:18:49] like sometimes you hear somebody talk about
[00:18:49 –> 00:18:54] what they would express as like an abusive environment
[00:18:55 –> 00:18:58] where there’s like psychological,
[00:18:59 –> 00:19:01] it’s just like very, very unhealthy.
[00:19:01 –> 00:19:05] And sometimes the examples they give are like,
[00:19:05 –> 00:19:08] “This thing happened, they said this, they said that.”
[00:19:08 –> 00:19:12] And it’s not like they swore at you, they insulted you.
[00:19:12 –> 00:19:15] There’s just like, there’s these…
[00:19:15 –> 00:19:17] When you just hear the small thing, like for me,
[00:19:17 –> 00:19:21] it’s like watch a little clip from the BUD/S training,
[00:19:21 –> 00:19:24] it’s like sometimes if you’re on the outside,
[00:19:24 –> 00:19:28] it’s hard to really get why that was so important
[00:19:28 –> 00:19:30] or why this was so painful or so hurtful.
[00:19:30 –> 00:19:33] And so sometimes people will be sharing
[00:19:33 –> 00:19:37] the really, really psychologically stressful
[00:19:37 –> 00:19:40] and painful and detrimental experience they’re in
[00:19:40 –> 00:19:41] and they’re sharing it with other people,
[00:19:41 –> 00:19:44] and they’re totally getting missed
[00:19:44 –> 00:19:47] because there’s something about a lack
[00:19:47 –> 00:19:49] of totally getting it from the inside.
[00:19:49 –> 00:19:51] And you don’t see the accumulation.
[00:19:51 –> 00:19:53] You don’t see the stress it’s caused.
[00:19:53 –> 00:19:55] You don’t see these small little things
[00:19:55 –> 00:19:56] that are consistent and constant
[00:19:56 –> 00:19:59] that make you on high alert all the time
[00:19:59 –> 00:20:01] and all this sort of stuff.
[00:20:02 –> 00:20:03] And so you can share this and you can express it,
[00:20:03 –> 00:20:07] but you can just like, people just don’t get it totally
[00:20:07 –> 00:20:10] and so they miss you, and so it makes it even more hurtful.
[00:20:10 –> 00:20:12] It makes it even more isolating, et cetera.
[00:20:14 –> 00:20:16] And I do think there’s a lot of this sometimes.
[00:20:16 –> 00:20:17] And I’m bringing this up
[00:20:17 –> 00:20:20] because I think that there’s a lot of experiences,
[00:20:20 –> 00:20:22] and we can kinda balance it a little bit if we need to,
[00:20:22 –> 00:20:24] of like somebody feeling something,
[00:20:24 –> 00:20:25] they experience something,
[00:20:25 –> 00:20:27] it’s really difficult, it’s really painful,
[00:20:30 –> 00:20:33] but people on the outside don’t have the same experience
[00:20:33 –> 00:20:35] and so they don’t get it.
[00:20:35 –> 00:20:39] And because I don’t get it, I dismiss it,
[00:20:39 –> 00:20:42] and I kind of condemn you for feeling that way.
[00:20:44 –> 00:20:48] I know this is obviously a lot, even a more sensitive place,
[00:20:48 –> 00:20:51] but I feel like with a lot of like race conversations
[00:20:51 –> 00:20:52] and things like that,
[00:20:52 –> 00:20:55] there’s one group who’s sharing the experience
[00:20:55 –> 00:20:56] and there’s another group
[00:20:56 –> 00:20:57] who has a whole different experience
[00:20:57 –> 00:20:59] and they hear the things being said,
[00:20:59 –> 00:21:00] but they don’t have the experience
[00:21:00 –> 00:21:02] and so they kinda dismiss it
[00:21:02 –> 00:21:05] and even condemn people for making these objections.
[00:21:05 –> 00:21:07] And so I guess the conversation, I guess,
[00:21:07 –> 00:21:10] was just to kind of, first of all, open this up
[00:21:10 –> 00:21:14] to the concept of people experiencing things,
[00:21:14 –> 00:21:19] sharing things, and it being hard for somebody
[00:21:20 –> 00:21:21] to get who’s on the outside.
[00:21:23 –> 00:21:25] But also like some sort of invitation
[00:21:25 –> 00:21:30] to a deep listening or even a compassion
[00:21:30 –> 00:21:33] before there’s a fullness of understanding.
[00:21:34 –> 00:21:36] Well, also balancing a little bit.
[00:21:37 –> 00:21:41] Sometimes there are places for tempering people
[00:21:41 –> 00:21:44] who have an overly victim mentality towards all things,
[00:21:44 –> 00:21:45] so it can be abused.
[00:21:47 –> 00:21:49] Thoughts, observations, questions,
[00:21:49 –> 00:21:50] experiences on any of that?
[00:21:52 –> 00:21:54] Yeah, I can start us off.
[00:21:54 –> 00:21:55] Just kinda simply,
[00:21:58 –> 00:21:59] yeah, I mean, what we’re talking about there
[00:21:59 –> 00:22:02] or kind of the complexities or layers of relationship
[00:22:02 –> 00:22:03] and life experience,
[00:22:03 –> 00:22:05] and I guess when I was listening to you
[00:22:05 –> 00:22:08] or like praying kinda through some of these things,
[00:22:10 –> 00:22:14] there’s just maybe an invitation of acceptance
[00:22:14 –> 00:22:19] that there are, especially when you’re in the midst
[00:22:19 –> 00:22:24] of let’s say, again, we brought up being a Navy SEAL
[00:22:24 –> 00:22:27] or BUD/S training, it’s gonna be misunderstanded
[00:22:27 –> 00:22:29] unless you’ve experienced it from the inside.
[00:22:29 –> 00:22:32] There’s just gonna be a poverty to people’s experience
[00:22:32 –> 00:22:33] and capacity to understand.
[00:22:33 –> 00:22:35] And I guess that’s the first thing
[00:22:35 –> 00:22:38] is that I find that in religious life sometimes
[00:22:38 –> 00:22:40] is that people don’t understand religious life
[00:22:40 –> 00:22:43] and so there’s just that kind of a poverty
[00:22:43 –> 00:22:47] and an acceptance like, oh, sometimes
[00:22:49 –> 00:22:51] in particular circumstances,
[00:22:51 –> 00:22:54] it’s just you feel really poor and misunderstood.
[00:22:54 –> 00:22:57] I think leadership’s like that where there’s this like,
[00:22:57 –> 00:22:58] “Oh, man, if like…”
[00:22:58 –> 00:23:01] You just feel kinda missed or people oversimplify
[00:23:01 –> 00:23:03] and they don’t really know what you’re really holding
[00:23:03 –> 00:23:06] unless you’ve kinda been there or tasted it.
[00:23:06 –> 00:23:08] And so it’s not complicated,
[00:23:08 –> 00:23:10] but I just think just there’s a poverty
[00:23:10 –> 00:23:14] in kind of the layers of life and relationships.
[00:23:14 –> 00:23:17] And I think it’s just good to know that
[00:23:17 –> 00:23:20] unless we really kinda deeply experience
[00:23:20 –> 00:23:21] from the inside or the outside.
[00:23:21 –> 00:23:23] And so you talk about race.
[00:23:23 –> 00:23:28] I think there’s such a reverence to what we have about that.
[00:23:28 –> 00:23:30] But you’re right, it can be oversimplified,
[00:23:30 –> 00:23:32] or there’s layers, or it’s complex.
[00:23:32 –> 00:23:37] And so I would imagine that there’s a painful part
[00:23:37 –> 00:23:40] of that from the inside that just like,
[00:23:40 –> 00:23:42] wow, there’s a poverty around this
[00:23:42 –> 00:23:44] where we feel misunderstood.
[00:23:44 –> 00:23:47] And then on the other side,
[00:23:47 –> 00:23:49] I wonder if there could be just like a compassion,
[00:23:49 –> 00:23:51] like you said, Fr. Mark-Mary,
[00:23:51 –> 00:23:54] of like, how do we approach things that we don’t understand
[00:23:54 –> 00:23:56] or that we have very limited experience?
[00:23:56 –> 00:24:01] Or instead of making, kind of being overly simple,
[00:24:01 –> 00:24:04] or thinking we have to say something
[00:24:04 –> 00:24:06] where we can understand when we just don’t,
[00:24:06 –> 00:24:07] it actually makes it worse, right?
[00:24:07 –> 00:24:10] So I just hold that, that there’s a ton of layers
[00:24:10 –> 00:24:13] and complexity to life, especially in these situations.
[00:24:13 –> 00:24:15] And I think it is a really good question.
[00:24:15 –> 00:24:18] How do we live in a relationship in this context
[00:24:18 –> 00:24:20] instead of assuming that we know
[00:24:20 –> 00:24:24] because it can be hurtful otherwise to assume
[00:24:24 –> 00:24:29] or to make comments to judge these kind of things.
[00:24:31 –> 00:24:34] Yeah, thank you, Fr. Innocent, Fr. Mark-Mary, for this.
[00:24:34 –> 00:24:37] Yeah, there’s a lot. (chuckles)
[00:24:37 –> 00:24:42] So marathon, hopefully, this lands or makes sense,
[00:24:42 –> 00:24:47] where there was an experience of like mile 23 or 24.
[00:24:47 –> 00:24:50] There was a guy and he was just like limping along.
[00:24:50 –> 00:24:52] And actually, it was a beautiful thing
[00:24:52 –> 00:24:53] throughout the marathon,
[00:24:53 –> 00:24:55] like just other runners were with you,
[00:24:55 –> 00:24:57] and they would mutually encourage you like,
[00:24:57 –> 00:24:58] “Hey, buddy, you got this.”
[00:24:58 –> 00:25:00] Or you pass somebody and they’re struggling along.
[00:25:00 –> 00:25:02] It’s like, “Hey, you got a little bit more to go.”
[00:25:02 –> 00:25:06] And so mile 23, 24, there was this guy,
[00:25:06 –> 00:25:10] and I passed him or whatever, we’re passing each other,
[00:25:10 –> 00:25:13] and he just blurts out like, “I can’t feel my toes.”
[00:25:13 –> 00:25:14] I was like, “Dang, that sucks, buddy.”
[00:25:14 –> 00:25:16] But “Hey, you got this.
[00:25:16 –> 00:25:17] We do hard things.”
[00:25:17 –> 00:25:20] And so there was a place where I understood him,
[00:25:20 –> 00:25:21] he understood me, right?
[00:25:21 –> 00:25:25] That we were both able to speak to each other’s experiences
[00:25:25 –> 00:25:27] and there was a rejoicing when we were
[00:25:27 –> 00:25:30] in the tent together after the race.
[00:25:30 –> 00:25:33] And so there’s that, right, where like sometimes…
[00:25:33 –> 00:25:36] And then so I compare that to like the people on the side
[00:25:36 –> 00:25:37] who are sitting in their lawn chairs
[00:25:37 –> 00:25:38] and like cheering us along,
[00:25:38 –> 00:25:40] which was great and it was helpful,
[00:25:40 –> 00:25:43] but unless they’ve gone through this
[00:25:43 –> 00:25:44] or they’re on the course with me,
[00:25:44 –> 00:25:47] it somewhat fell short, like I’m doing this difficult thing
[00:25:47 –> 00:25:48] and you’re just kinda there
[00:25:48 –> 00:25:49] with your hot chocolate, you know?
[00:25:51 –> 00:25:54] And I think sometimes from the experience of,
[00:25:54 –> 00:25:56] I’m thinking of like the Navy SEALs person
[00:25:56 –> 00:25:58] or the person who’s in this place is like,
[00:25:58 –> 00:25:59] you just don’t understand
[00:25:59 –> 00:26:02] because you haven’t been with me in this place,
[00:26:02 –> 00:26:04] which is a real thing.
[00:26:04 –> 00:26:06] But at the same time, I don’t think it should,
[00:26:06 –> 00:26:08] yeah, from our perspective,
[00:26:08 –> 00:26:11] it should dismiss the person who’s there cheering for you.
[00:26:11 –> 00:26:13] They just can’t understand it.
[00:26:13 –> 00:26:14] And so I guess what I’m just trying to say
[00:26:14 –> 00:26:15] is checking our hearts,
[00:26:15 –> 00:26:17] especially if we’re in a difficult situation,
[00:26:17 –> 00:26:20] we don’t feel met by the other person.
[00:26:20 –> 00:26:24] But also on the flip side is like if I’m receiving somebody
[00:26:24 –> 00:26:26] and I haven’t had their experience,
[00:26:26 –> 00:26:28] just like, how can I be curious about that, right?
[00:26:28 –> 00:26:30] And so it’s just like touching upon the race conversation,
[00:26:30 –> 00:26:32] and I just felt personally, like you said,
[00:26:32 –> 00:26:34] a lot of conversations I had around them
[00:26:34 –> 00:26:38] or have around them, just like people can be dismissive
[00:26:38 –> 00:26:39] of like, “Oh, it’s not that big of a deal.”
[00:26:39 –> 00:26:41] Or like, oh, they try to compare it to something else
[00:26:41 –> 00:26:43] that just actually doesn’t land.
[00:26:43 –> 00:26:46] And you walk away from the conversation
[00:26:46 –> 00:26:49] feeling even more alone or even more frustrated
[00:26:49 –> 00:26:51] or even more like, “Oh, you just don’t get it.”
[00:26:51 –> 00:26:53] And my natural tendency for me is just to shut down
[00:26:53 –> 00:26:55] and like, okay, this person, there’s no conversation here.
[00:26:55 –> 00:26:58] But just the question is like, for a person,
[00:26:58 –> 00:26:59] especially if they’re in a place
[00:26:59 –> 00:27:03] of not being able to understand somebody else’s experience
[00:27:03 –> 00:27:05] is, can I just listen as opposed
[00:27:05 –> 00:27:07] to like quickly dismissing whatever the person’s saying.
[00:27:07 –> 00:27:08] And as you said, Fr. Mark-Mary,
[00:27:08 –> 00:27:10] just holding up objective truths
[00:27:10 –> 00:27:12] and just to realize that like,
[00:27:12 –> 00:27:13] okay, maybe this is very difficult for this person
[00:27:13 –> 00:27:16] and I’m just gonna receive them.
[00:27:16 –> 00:27:18] And also, too, just maybe listening
[00:27:18 –> 00:27:20] for what’s underneath of,
[00:27:20 –> 00:27:22] like just listening, like, gosh, they must feel so alone.
[00:27:22 –> 00:27:25] And maybe you can connect to an experience
[00:27:25 –> 00:27:26] that you had of being alone.
[00:27:26 –> 00:27:28] And just what I’m outlining
[00:27:28 –> 00:27:30] is like how to be empathetic type of thing.
[00:27:30 –> 00:27:31] And can I connect to experience like that?
[00:27:31 –> 00:27:33] And just to reflect that.
[00:27:33 –> 00:27:35] Like, wow, it just sounds like they’re very alone
[00:27:35 –> 00:27:37] in an experience or that sounds like it’s just very tough.
[00:27:37 –> 00:27:40] And oftentimes, that’s all a person needs
[00:27:40 –> 00:27:42] if it’s like, okay, you may not understand fully,
[00:27:42 –> 00:27:45] but at least you’re listening and at least you’re moving
[00:27:45 –> 00:27:47] in a direction of receiving my heart.
[00:27:47 –> 00:27:48] Because at the end of the day,
[00:27:48 –> 00:27:51] whenever difficult things are going on,
[00:27:51 –> 00:27:52] we just wanna be received.
[00:27:52 –> 00:27:53] We wanna be seen.
[00:27:53 –> 00:27:54] We wanna be at least heard.
[00:27:54 –> 00:27:56] And whether or not the thing
[00:27:56 –> 00:27:58] that we’re going through changes is better or not,
[00:27:58 –> 00:28:00] and oftentimes, these things,
[00:28:00 –> 00:28:02] it’s not immediate, the change,
[00:28:03 –> 00:28:05] but ultimately, just having a space to be heard
[00:28:05 –> 00:28:07] and received, especially by ones you love
[00:28:07 –> 00:28:08] or especially if it’s in a community
[00:28:08 –> 00:28:10] or if it’s in a family setting
[00:28:10 –> 00:28:12] or if it’s a friend group,
[00:28:12 –> 00:28:16] just having people around you who know you receive you
[00:28:16 –> 00:28:20] in a space that’s just good I think can help
[00:28:20 –> 00:28:21] especially carry these things
[00:28:21 –> 00:28:23] that sometimes are difficult for us.
[00:28:24 –> 00:28:25] And so yeah.
[00:28:25 –> 00:28:27] So just connecting with the person,
[00:28:27 –> 00:28:30] but like on a human level and making sure that,
[00:28:30 –> 00:28:33] anyway, it’s almost checking your heart in real time
[00:28:33 –> 00:28:35] of like, am I worsening the situation?
[00:28:35 –> 00:28:36] Am I making it better?
[00:28:36 –> 00:28:38] Can I just listen to this person’s experience
[00:28:38 –> 00:28:40] as opposed to trying to fix and solve it?
[00:28:40 –> 00:28:43] I think that’s sometimes how we miss the person
[00:28:43 –> 00:28:46] in the moment of just trying to, yeah, explain it away
[00:28:46 –> 00:28:48] when actually explanation’s not needed,
[00:28:48 –> 00:28:50] but just like a listening heart and a listening friend.
[00:28:53 –> 00:28:54] Thank you, Fr. PT.
[00:28:54 –> 00:28:57] And when hearing you guys all speak,
[00:28:57 –> 00:29:00] I think we’re, yeah, this is an interesting
[00:29:00 –> 00:29:01] and beautiful conversation
[00:29:01 –> 00:29:03] and just trying to get at the heart of it.
[00:29:03 –> 00:29:06] And one of the words that, maybe if I could just add a word,
[00:29:06 –> 00:29:08] thinking about all of us have roles and experiences,
[00:29:08 –> 00:29:09] whether it’s confession, or spirit direction,
[00:29:09 –> 00:29:11] or formation, or being with other people,
[00:29:11 –> 00:29:13] and you have this question like, how am I present?
[00:29:13 –> 00:29:16] What do people need from me when I sit with them, right?
[00:29:16 –> 00:29:18] And sometimes they need advice,
[00:29:18 –> 00:29:19] sometimes they need formation,
[00:29:19 –> 00:29:21] sometimes they need correction,
[00:29:21 –> 00:29:23] sometimes they need absolution.
[00:29:23 –> 00:29:26] But there’s always this temptation to wanna do something.
[00:29:26 –> 00:29:30] And the word that has been super helpful for me
[00:29:30 –> 00:29:33] over the last couple years is the word, validation.
[00:29:33 –> 00:29:36] And that’s exactly what you’re talking about, PT.
[00:29:36 –> 00:29:39] But it’s like when someone shares something,
[00:29:39 –> 00:29:41] instead of the temptation to fix it, work it out,
[00:29:41 –> 00:29:42] give perfect advice,
[00:29:42 –> 00:29:44] but validation is kinda like this like,
[00:29:44 –> 00:29:46] “Oh, man, that must be really hard.”
[00:29:47 –> 00:29:50] Or, “I’m really sorry that happened to you.”
[00:29:51 –> 00:29:52] And you validate the feelings.
[00:29:52 –> 00:29:56] You validate the experience rather than jumping in quick
[00:29:56 –> 00:29:58] and trying to fix, or jumping in quick,
[00:29:58 –> 00:30:01] trying to even help people make sense of it.
[00:30:01 –> 00:30:03] And as I was sitting here listening to that,
[00:30:03 –> 00:30:05] I was thinking like in those situations
[00:30:05 –> 00:30:06] where I say something like that,
[00:30:06 –> 00:30:10] that’s usually when people settle down,
[00:30:10 –> 00:30:12] maybe get more emotional.
[00:30:12 –> 00:30:14] Oftentimes, when I, like you guys said,
[00:30:14 –> 00:30:16] like, “That must be really difficult,”
[00:30:16 –> 00:30:17] or like, “Man, that’s awful.
[00:30:17 –> 00:30:18] I’m really sorry that happened to you.”
[00:30:18 –> 00:30:20] That’s when the tears come.
[00:30:20 –> 00:30:22] Or that’s when more vulnerability, that’s when more trust.
[00:30:22 –> 00:30:25] You’re like, “Oh, Fr.’s actually feeling
[00:30:25 –> 00:30:28] and with me in this, validating my experience
[00:30:28 –> 00:30:31] rather than just trying to give advice, or fix,
[00:30:31 –> 00:30:33] or do something in that.”
[00:30:33 –> 00:30:35] And so I always love that, especially when I’m trying
[00:30:35 –> 00:30:38] to help the young guys be with the neighbors.
[00:30:38 –> 00:30:39] You don’t have to fix the neighbors.
[00:30:39 –> 00:30:42] You can be like, “Man, I’m really, really hurting with you.
[00:30:42 –> 00:30:44] That’s really difficult.”
[00:30:44 –> 00:30:46] Or, “I’m so sorry that happened to you.”
[00:30:46 –> 00:30:48] And I think it takes a lot of pressure off,
[00:30:48 –> 00:30:51] but I think it’s pretty vital to the human experience,
[00:30:51 –> 00:30:53] and especially in topics we don’t understand
[00:30:53 –> 00:30:57] or topics where I might not feel as much as you
[00:30:57 –> 00:30:58] or I might not understand as much as you,
[00:30:58 –> 00:31:02] but if it’s important to you, how can I enter in
[00:31:02 –> 00:31:04] and validate the emotion, validate the feeling,
[00:31:04 –> 00:31:05] and validate the experience?
[00:31:05 –> 00:31:06] And because sometimes validating
[00:31:06 –> 00:31:08] is not saying I necessarily agree with it
[00:31:08 –> 00:31:11] or I’m encouraging you,
[00:31:11 –> 00:31:14] even if someone’s acknowledging something sinful,
[00:31:14 –> 00:31:15] you can validate the emotion underneath,
[00:31:15 –> 00:31:17] “Man, you must be really sad,”
[00:31:17 –> 00:31:21] or, “You must be really lonely if it’s come to this.”
[00:31:22 –> 00:31:23] You don’t necessarily say,
[00:31:23 –> 00:31:24] hey, like affirming what’s happened.
[00:31:24 –> 00:31:27] You’re just validating the heart, right?
[00:31:27 –> 00:31:28] And so yeah, I just think that, yeah,
[00:31:31 –> 00:31:33] it kinda goes a long way with people when you,
[00:31:33 –> 00:31:35] and Fr. PT used the word, empathy,
[00:31:35 –> 00:31:37] when people have a felt experience of like,
[00:31:37 –> 00:31:38] “Oh, wow, he’s with me right now,
[00:31:38 –> 00:31:40] validating what I’m experiencing
[00:31:40 –> 00:31:42] rather than just trying to fix something.”
[00:31:42 –> 00:31:43] Yeah.
[00:31:43 –> 00:31:43] Yeah, thank you.
[00:31:43 –> 00:31:46] And I think validating, that’s a great word.
[00:31:46 –> 00:31:48] What we wanna…
[00:31:49 –> 00:31:51] I don’t wanna move here too quickly,
[00:31:51 –> 00:31:52] but I think it’s appropriate,
[00:31:52 –> 00:31:56] is like I do think in certain spaces
[00:31:56 –> 00:31:59] in the culture these days, there’s a,
[00:32:00 –> 00:32:03] right, there’s a lot of like my truth, my way,
[00:32:03 –> 00:32:08] whatever I think, whatever I feel not only needs
[00:32:08 –> 00:32:11] to be validated, but it needs to,
[00:32:13 –> 00:32:14] it needs to be true.
[00:32:15 –> 00:32:18] Everything that I say or think or feel or want,
[00:32:18 –> 00:32:22] I should have a right to without any sort of conversation
[00:32:22 –> 00:32:25] or dialogue or any openness to…
[00:32:27 –> 00:32:29] Like it’s a one-way conversation.
[00:32:29 –> 00:32:31] And I think that’s what we also like…
[00:32:32 –> 00:32:34] We can hold these both in tension.
[00:32:34 –> 00:32:37] And probably for a lot of people,
[00:32:38 –> 00:32:43] there’s a little bit of like a compassion fatigue
[00:32:43 –> 00:32:45] where it’s like, okay, now we can’t do this either.
[00:32:45 –> 00:32:47] Now we can’t do that either.
[00:32:47 –> 00:32:51] And it’s just like with speech or word,
[00:32:51 –> 00:32:52] “I can’t say this anymore,”
[00:32:52 –> 00:32:56] or it’s like, “For this holiday, we can’t do this anymore,”
[00:32:56 –> 00:32:59] or (chuckles) whatever.
[00:32:59 –> 00:33:02] It’s like you can’t bring peanut butter and jelly to school.
[00:33:02 –> 00:33:04] There’s just all this sort of stuff, right,
[00:33:04 –> 00:33:06] that’s out there that’s like, “Oh, gosh,
[00:33:06 –> 00:33:07] I feel like I’m not free to live.”
[00:33:07 –> 00:33:09] And so there is some fatigue.
[00:33:09 –> 00:33:14] But we can’t allow that to just then cause us
[00:33:16 –> 00:33:19] to throw out deep listening conversation,
[00:33:19 –> 00:33:21] seeking understanding, compassion, right?
[00:33:21 –> 00:33:23] So I do think that there’s a little bit
[00:33:23 –> 00:33:25] of a movement, I think, from the tiredness
[00:33:25 –> 00:33:27] of being like, (sighs) “Another thing.
[00:33:27 –> 00:33:28] Get over it.”
[00:33:28 –> 00:33:30] All these victims, all this sort of stuff.
[00:33:30 –> 00:33:33] And maybe that’s out there and that’s part of it,
[00:33:33 –> 00:33:35] but first, let’s just like…
[00:33:36 –> 00:33:38] And I think, Fr. Angelus, you said that great
[00:33:38 –> 00:33:41] is like, yeah, to be able to validate something
[00:33:41 –> 00:33:43] and enter into it, to have them be seen, heard,
[00:33:43 –> 00:33:47] doesn’t mean that they have to be 100% correct, right?
[00:33:47 –> 00:33:50] And all of us who I think are in leadership have some
[00:33:50 –> 00:33:51] of this experience of like,
[00:33:51 –> 00:33:53] “Okay, here’s this thing that I really, really want,
[00:33:53 –> 00:33:54] that I really, really feel,”
[00:33:54 –> 00:33:54] blah, blah, blah, this and that.
[00:33:54 –> 00:33:57] And it’s like, “Well, okay, I hear you,
[00:33:57 –> 00:33:59] but we’re not gonna be able to do that
[00:33:59 –> 00:34:02] and here’s some of these reasons why.”
[00:34:02 –> 00:34:03] But I just think, yeah,
[00:34:03 –> 00:34:05] I think so there’s certainly this part of,
[00:34:05 –> 00:34:07] okay, there’s all these different experiences
[00:34:07 –> 00:34:09] in life where somebody feels unseen,
[00:34:09 –> 00:34:10] and I think that’s a good way to say it,
[00:34:10 –> 00:34:12] and unheard, and quickly dismissed.
[00:34:12 –> 00:34:15] And so that happens in some of the examples I’ve shared.
[00:34:15 –> 00:34:19] That happens with being in leadership, being a parent.
[00:34:19 –> 00:34:24] I think this happens with being in the church
[00:34:24 –> 00:34:29] and experiencing infertility, or being single,
[00:34:29 –> 00:34:31] or I think that’s like…
[00:34:32 –> 00:34:35] We often, in our examples,
[00:34:35 –> 00:34:37] holding up somebody for an example on this podcast,
[00:34:37 –> 00:34:40] we often hold up the married mom with a lot of kids.
[00:34:41 –> 00:34:44] And there’s a way in which like, yeah, you know what?
[00:34:44 –> 00:34:46] We have to be careful about not making that the only example
[00:34:46 –> 00:34:49] because now we’re like, (chuckles)
[00:34:49 –> 00:34:50] there’s all these other people out there
[00:34:51 –> 00:34:54] who would do anything to have a bunch of kids
[00:34:54 –> 00:34:55] and to be stretched in that way.
[00:34:55 –> 00:34:57] And we’re not spending a lot of time validating
[00:34:57 –> 00:34:59] or highlighting that lived experience
[00:34:59 –> 00:35:02] of infertility or singleness, right?
[00:35:03 –> 00:35:04] So I just think…
[00:35:06 –> 00:35:08] We’re trying not to go to extremes,
[00:35:08 –> 00:35:13] but to kinda stay in this tension of understanding,
[00:35:13 –> 00:35:16] of seeking understanding, of not being quickly dismissive,
[00:35:16 –> 00:35:19] of not falling into the trap,
[00:35:19 –> 00:35:21] like if I don’t get it, it must not be true,
[00:35:21 –> 00:35:24] or if I don’t understand it, it must not be true,
[00:35:24 –> 00:35:26] but to be open to the work of a deeper understanding
[00:35:26 –> 00:35:28] and a deeper listening,
[00:35:29 –> 00:35:32] and to do so in a way which isn’t fear-driven.
[00:35:32 –> 00:35:33] I think there’s a lot of like,
[00:35:33 –> 00:35:36] okay, if we give this, we do this, what’s next?
[00:35:37 –> 00:35:39] I’m gonna kinda flip it to the other person.
[00:35:39 –> 00:35:42] But any other just comments on any of that?
[00:35:42 –> 00:35:43] Great.
[00:35:43 –> 00:35:45] So now to kinda like use something specific, I guess,
[00:35:45 –> 00:35:49] is we could use sort of the misophonia thing.
[00:35:49 –> 00:35:51] Like if I’m preaching
[00:35:51 –> 00:35:54] and somebody is writing in the back pew, like in our chapel,
[00:35:54 –> 00:35:56] I’m hearing it and it’s distracting.
[00:35:58 –> 00:36:00] They can do that, you know what I mean?
[00:36:02 –> 00:36:05] There has to be some internal work of like,
[00:36:05 –> 00:36:07] okay, here’s this reaction.
[00:36:07 –> 00:36:09] It is a me thing.
[00:36:09 –> 00:36:11] I’m sensitive to this for this reason.
[00:36:11 –> 00:36:16] I can accept that this is an honest experience that I have.
[00:36:16 –> 00:36:18] The reaction is sincere and honest.
[00:36:18 –> 00:36:21] That’s actually kinda out of my control.
[00:36:21 –> 00:36:23] But I can then be like, okay, let’s go ahead
[00:36:23 –> 00:36:25] and apply reason to this felt experience of like,
[00:36:25 –> 00:36:30] okay, what they’re doing is a super reasonable thing to do.
[00:36:30 –> 00:36:33] My response, though it is my response,
[00:36:33 –> 00:36:34] it’s disproportionate.
[00:36:34 –> 00:36:39] And so my response can’t be anger, resentment,
[00:36:39 –> 00:36:41] whatever, whatever, whatever.
[00:36:42 –> 00:36:44] And also, there has to be some,
[00:36:44 –> 00:36:46] as there’s grace given, like, okay,
[00:36:46 –> 00:36:47] I wanna understand what I don’t understand.
[00:36:47 –> 00:36:48] There has to be grace given like,
[00:36:48 –> 00:36:51] okay, they’re not gonna be totally able
[00:36:51 –> 00:36:53] to understand it either, you know,
[00:36:53 –> 00:36:56] like to be compassionate in that way.
[00:36:56 –> 00:36:58] Or I think for, I guess, us in leadership,
[00:36:58 –> 00:37:01] there’s a lot of things that,
[00:37:01 –> 00:37:03] a lot of burdens that somebody in leadership carries
[00:37:03 –> 00:37:07] that are very isolating that the people
[00:37:07 –> 00:37:11] that we’re in charge of, they’re just not gonna get it
[00:37:11 –> 00:37:13] until they’re on the other side of it.
[00:37:13 –> 00:37:15] And okay, and so we can have conversation,
[00:37:15 –> 00:37:18] but also, there has to be this openness of like,
[00:37:18 –> 00:37:21] okay, this is part of the sacrifice,
[00:37:21 –> 00:37:22] part of the suffering of the job.
[00:37:25 –> 00:37:27] I can try and communicate in a healthy way.
[00:37:27 –> 00:37:29] But also, I have to be compassionate and understanding
[00:37:29 –> 00:37:32] that they just don’t have the experience of it
[00:37:32 –> 00:37:35] and so they’re just not totally gonna get it,
[00:37:35 –> 00:37:38] and to give grace in that way.
[00:37:38 –> 00:37:41] So also, just again, if you guys have any thoughts,
[00:37:41 –> 00:37:45] just in the person who’s not being understood,
[00:37:47 –> 00:37:49] obviously, there’s a huge range of that,
[00:37:49 –> 00:37:51] but like what is some of their invitation?
[00:37:54 –> 00:37:56] No, thank you for, yeah,
[00:37:56 –> 00:37:57] just opening up this conversation.
[00:37:57 –> 00:38:01] But yeah, I’m just thinking of my own experience.
[00:38:02 –> 00:38:04] Yeah, like there’s just certain parts,
[00:38:04 –> 00:38:05] like you’ve mentioned leadership
[00:38:05 –> 00:38:07] or I’m thinking in particular with race
[00:38:07 –> 00:38:11] where I can share something with brothers in the community
[00:38:11 –> 00:38:15] about just ways in which I felt missed
[00:38:15 –> 00:38:16] specifically because of race.
[00:38:16 –> 00:38:18] And I’ve had to come to the understanding
[00:38:18 –> 00:38:21] that they just won’t understand, you know?
[00:38:21 –> 00:38:22] They can meet me even compassionately
[00:38:22 –> 00:38:25] and yeah, empathetically,
[00:38:25 –> 00:38:28] but they’re never gonna be like, “I 100% understand you.
[00:38:28 –> 00:38:30] I 100% get you.”
[00:38:30 –> 00:38:32] And it’s isolating, it’s a difficult thing.
[00:38:32 –> 00:38:36] And the lie which can creep up from that
[00:38:36 –> 00:38:38] is you’ll always be alone, you’ll never be understood,
[00:38:38 –> 00:38:41] or you’re always gonna be in this place.
[00:38:41 –> 00:38:43] And thank be to God, anyway, there’s this space
[00:38:43 –> 00:38:44] that I can go into now with the Lord
[00:38:44 –> 00:38:46] where like, “At least, Lord, you’ve been with me,
[00:38:46 –> 00:38:47] you know me, you understand me.”
[00:38:47 –> 00:38:49] And so I would just encourage that
[00:38:49 –> 00:38:51] with whatever it is that comes up for us
[00:38:51 –> 00:38:55] that causes, yeah, this felt experience
[00:38:55 –> 00:38:58] of not being understood or being missed.
[00:38:59 –> 00:39:01] And can we be in that place with the Lord?
[00:39:01 –> 00:39:03] Because nobody…
[00:39:03 –> 00:39:05] People outside of our experience
[00:39:05 –> 00:39:08] won’t 100% understand the experience.
[00:39:08 –> 00:39:10] And even, too, people who have been in experience,
[00:39:10 –> 00:39:11] it’s similar and it’s actually very good,
[00:39:11 –> 00:39:13] but there’s still like 100%,
[00:39:13 –> 00:39:15] like it’s never gonna be 100%.
[00:39:15 –> 00:39:18] And the one who knows the Lord,
[00:39:18 –> 00:39:20] can we invite him in that place
[00:39:20 –> 00:39:21] as opposed to dancing with the lies
[00:39:21 –> 00:39:24] or like just allowing the lies to creep in to say like,
[00:39:24 –> 00:39:26] oh, you’re so other that nobody can love you,
[00:39:26 –> 00:39:29] or like how the evil one can have a field day there
[00:39:29 –> 00:39:33] in that space I think is just super helpful and important.
[00:39:33 –> 00:39:35] And it’s a thing I’ve learned
[00:39:35 –> 00:39:38] that we can hold these things in tension.
[00:39:38 –> 00:39:41] I’ve had this experience, I could express myself,
[00:39:41 –> 00:39:42] but at the same time,
[00:39:42 –> 00:39:43] this person will never fully understand me.
[00:39:43 –> 00:39:46] But there is one who does know me, specifically the Lord,
[00:39:46 –> 00:39:49] and he does desire to speak to my heart, to know,
[00:39:49 –> 00:39:51] to allow me to know that I’m his,
[00:39:51 –> 00:39:53] I’m wonderfully created, or whatever the truth is
[00:39:53 –> 00:39:56] that help bring me back to relationship
[00:39:56 –> 00:39:58] and knowing that I’m connected to one in a way
[00:39:58 –> 00:40:00] that’s deeper than even expressing my experience
[00:40:00 –> 00:40:02] to this other person, so I’ll just share that.
[00:40:02 –> 00:40:05] Yeah, PT, thanks for that, bro.
[00:40:05 –> 00:40:08] We kind of, on this podcast, we bring it back a lot
[00:40:08 –> 00:40:11] to communion, and connection,
[00:40:11 –> 00:40:13] and especially identity, right?
[00:40:15 –> 00:40:16] ‘Cause what we’re talking about
[00:40:16 –> 00:40:21] is very super important experiences in life
[00:40:21 –> 00:40:25] and they can be the joy of connection and being understood
[00:40:25 –> 00:40:28] or the pain of being misunderstood.
[00:40:28 –> 00:40:32] And we’ve talked a lot about different examples of that.
[00:40:32 –> 00:40:36] But it does go back to these places
[00:40:36 –> 00:40:41] are just really good areas to practice our identity, right?
[00:40:41 –> 00:40:43] Especially if you feel misunderstood.
[00:40:43 –> 00:40:44] It can feel really lonely
[00:40:44 –> 00:40:46] and like your world is really small.
[00:40:46 –> 00:40:50] And you, that’s when Fr. PT said we start believing the lies
[00:40:50 –> 00:40:53] and they can attack the deepest truths about us, right?
[00:40:53 –> 00:40:55] And they’re so deep and so sensitive,
[00:40:55 –> 00:40:57] but then no one understands me, right?
[00:40:57 –> 00:41:00] And so it is a fight for identity.
[00:41:00 –> 00:41:04] Again, who are we and whose we are, right?
[00:41:04 –> 00:41:06] Where do we get our identity?
[00:41:06 –> 00:41:10] Where do we define the truth about who we are, right?
[00:41:11 –> 00:41:13] And then suddenly everything just has perspective
[00:41:13 –> 00:41:17] that we give, we don’t give people power over us
[00:41:17 –> 00:41:19] in the deep truths about our lives.
[00:41:19 –> 00:41:21] Even though the misunderstanding’s real,
[00:41:21 –> 00:41:23] you can’t explain that away.
[00:41:23 –> 00:41:27] But there’s a different place where we’re anchored, right?
[00:41:27 –> 00:41:28] And it’s hard.
[00:41:28 –> 00:41:29] Leadership’s hard.
[00:41:29 –> 00:41:33] Or especially if you’re doing something
[00:41:33 –> 00:41:34] that the majority of the world,
[00:41:34 –> 00:41:37] especially I was thinking about like being a Navy SEAL.
[00:41:37 –> 00:41:40] Very few people have that experience.
[00:41:40 –> 00:41:42] And so especially if you’re doing something
[00:41:42 –> 00:41:45] that’s really not common.
[00:41:46 –> 00:41:49] I think holiness, (chuckles) in a world that misunderstands,
[00:41:49 –> 00:41:51] you’re just gonna experience all the time,
[00:41:51 –> 00:41:53] like, man, I don’t feel like I’m seen,
[00:41:53 –> 00:41:55] or I feel misunderstood,
[00:41:55 –> 00:42:00] or I feel people don’t understand some deep parts about me.
[00:42:00 –> 00:42:02] That’s when we just wanna make sure we’re founded
[00:42:02 –> 00:42:04] on the truth of our identity in Jesus
[00:42:04 –> 00:42:05] and that we have people in our lives
[00:42:05 –> 00:42:08] that will mirror back to us the truth instead
[00:42:08 –> 00:42:11] of letting it come from the misunderstanding
[00:42:11 –> 00:42:13] or trying to be that victim
[00:42:13 –> 00:42:15] or have to constantly fight for who I am,
[00:42:15 –> 00:42:17] that there’s a deeper truth we have to stand on.
[00:42:17 –> 00:42:21] And I think that kinda gives us vision
[00:42:21 –> 00:42:22] and perspective to see it.
[00:42:25 –> 00:42:27] Just a thought on, if we can,
[00:42:27 –> 00:42:29] ’cause validation equals safety.
[00:42:29 –> 00:42:30] And Fr. Mark-Mary, you were saying
[00:42:30 –> 00:42:34] that when people wanna be seen, and so if they feel safe,
[00:42:34 –> 00:42:37] then Fr. PT’s word that comes in is like,
[00:42:37 –> 00:42:38] can we be curious about this?
[00:42:38 –> 00:42:39] And there’s an invitation.
[00:42:39 –> 00:42:42] Can we expand the vision a little bit
[00:42:42 –> 00:42:43] in the midst of this difficulty
[00:42:43 –> 00:42:44] or in the midst of this conversation,
[00:42:44 –> 00:42:47] in the midst of maybe not seeing things the same way?
[00:42:47 –> 00:42:51] But our brain narrows our vision pretty,
[00:42:51 –> 00:42:53] if we cling to something,
[00:42:53 –> 00:42:56] but that’s because we’re trying to protect ourselves.
[00:42:56 –> 00:42:57] And so if there’s validation,
[00:42:57 –> 00:43:00] if there’s a sense of safety in relationship,
[00:43:00 –> 00:43:01] then there’s this proposal.
[00:43:01 –> 00:43:03] “Hey, would you consider having a conversation
[00:43:03 –> 00:43:05] that can maybe expand our understanding a little bit
[00:43:05 –> 00:43:08] or where we kinda seek, we can wrestle,
[00:43:08 –> 00:43:10] or we can have good conflict in the midst
[00:43:10 –> 00:43:12] of what we’re talking about or what you’re experiencing
[00:43:12 –> 00:43:14] or whatever’s going on,” right?
[00:43:14 –> 00:43:16] So safety can lead to curiosity
[00:43:16 –> 00:43:18] and it can lead to like a gentle challenge of,
[00:43:18 –> 00:43:20] hey, can we open up our vision here?
[00:43:20 –> 00:43:22] Can self-protection loosen up a little bit
[00:43:22 –> 00:43:26] so I can widen my sense of what’s happening in my life?
[00:43:27 –> 00:43:29] But it’s challenging because, again,
[00:43:29 –> 00:43:31] we wanna beat each other over the heads with truth
[00:43:31 –> 00:43:35] and with arguments and with conflict and things.
[00:43:35 –> 00:43:37] And if everybody’s unsafe in the conversation,
[00:43:37 –> 00:43:40] then nothing’s gonna land, nothing’s gonna sit, right?
[00:43:40 –> 00:43:44] And so this gift of identity, this gift of our relationship,
[00:43:44 –> 00:43:46] this gift of connection allows us to,
[00:43:46 –> 00:43:48] hey, can I have a tough conversation?
[00:43:48 –> 00:43:51] Can I be in a conversation where not everybody agrees?
[00:43:52 –> 00:43:55] Can we accept the reality that this is a difficult topic,
[00:43:55 –> 00:43:56] but because of the safety
[00:43:56 –> 00:43:58] and the connection we have with one another,
[00:43:58 –> 00:44:03] can we wrestle in charity and can we get a sense
[00:44:03 –> 00:44:06] and receive what the other believes and feels?
[00:44:07 –> 00:44:09] And that’s just not common at all
[00:44:09 –> 00:44:11] because I think the world’s super unsafe
[00:44:11 –> 00:44:13] and people have this felt sense of that, man,
[00:44:13 –> 00:44:16] I can’t do these things
[00:44:16 –> 00:44:18] and I’m very rarely received in the midst
[00:44:18 –> 00:44:20] of what I’m experiencing or what I’m feeling
[00:44:20 –> 00:44:22] in this kind of world of division.
[00:44:22 –> 00:44:26] So then very rarely can people actually be curious
[00:44:26 –> 00:44:29] and open up a vision if they’re super protected.
[00:44:31 –> 00:44:33] Yeah, I appreciate you guys unpacking that,
[00:44:33 –> 00:44:35] this whole concept with me.
[00:44:35 –> 00:44:40] And we are made, right, to be seen and known and understood.
[00:44:42 –> 00:44:46] That’s actually like a human good that we want and will seek
[00:44:46 –> 00:44:48] and it’s actually good to seek it.
[00:44:48 –> 00:44:50] So right, if you are misunderstood
[00:44:50 –> 00:44:51] and you aren’t really feeling seen
[00:44:51 –> 00:44:54] and you feel sorta like dismissed,
[00:44:54 –> 00:44:56] it is good to communicate
[00:44:56 –> 00:44:57] at the service of communion, right?
[00:44:57 –> 00:44:58] To share, “Here’s my experience.
[00:44:58 –> 00:45:00] Here’s what’s going on.”
[00:45:00 –> 00:45:02] And if you can, in a healthy way.
[00:45:03 –> 00:45:06] Like, “Okay, I think we’re missing each other a little bit.
[00:45:06 –> 00:45:08] Can I share a little bit more?”
[00:45:10 –> 00:45:13] So that desire and that, I think it is…
[00:45:13 –> 00:45:15] No, it is good and it is a human good.
[00:45:17 –> 00:45:21] And it is good for us to seek to offer that to other people,
[00:45:21 –> 00:45:24] to seek offering them the experience
[00:45:24 –> 00:45:26] and the reality of being seen and heard
[00:45:26 –> 00:45:30] and understood as best we can.
[00:45:30 –> 00:45:32] But also, there has to be some acceptance
[00:45:32 –> 00:45:33] of these human limitations,
[00:45:33 –> 00:45:35] which I think we’ve gotten at.
[00:45:37 –> 00:45:39] And not everything’s created equal, right?
[00:45:39 –> 00:45:40] There are certain things which actually need it
[00:45:40 –> 00:45:43] to be a little bit more bold and aggressive.
[00:45:43 –> 00:45:45] But for the most part, it’s like we’re, okay,
[00:45:46 –> 00:45:48] we’re gonna really seek to try and be understood
[00:45:48 –> 00:45:50] and we’re gonna seek to understand
[00:45:51 –> 00:45:55] while also just being open to because of the experience gap,
[00:45:55 –> 00:45:57] there might be some understanding gap.
[00:45:57 –> 00:46:00] So I’m kinda open to somebody else not totally getting it
[00:46:03 –> 00:46:07] and I’m open, yeah, or I’m open to being able
[00:46:07 –> 00:46:10] to accept something that I don’t totally get.
[00:46:10 –> 00:46:11] But ultimately, and this is where Fr. PT went,
[00:46:11 –> 00:46:16] is I do think at some point part of the work we have
[00:46:17 –> 00:46:21] in this implicitly is like there is some form of acceptance.
[00:46:21 –> 00:46:23] We do wanna get to a place of like,
[00:46:23 –> 00:46:26] if we’re the person who’s being misunderstood or not seen,
[00:46:26 –> 00:46:28] accepting, like, okay,
[00:46:29 –> 00:46:32] this might just be the reality here, right?
[00:46:32 –> 00:46:33] There is some discernment of whether
[00:46:33 –> 00:46:36] or not this is something to continue to pursue.
[00:46:36 –> 00:46:38] But there might be some spaces, right?
[00:46:38 –> 00:46:41] Some of the isolation of leadership,
[00:46:41 –> 00:46:45] there’s part of that that we do just need to accept
[00:46:45 –> 00:46:47] that this is gonna be part of it.
[00:46:48 –> 00:46:50] But then this is the good news, right?
[00:46:50 –> 00:46:55] Is like, okay, I really desire and want
[00:46:55 –> 00:46:58] and even made for this deep being understood in life.
[00:46:59 –> 00:47:01] I’m accepting that it’s not totally gonna get there here
[00:47:01 –> 00:47:04] with all these relationships, et cetera.
[00:47:04 –> 00:47:07] But that’s where like we bring it
[00:47:07 –> 00:47:09] to the Father who sees in secret,
[00:47:09 –> 00:47:11] the one who knows the mind and the heart, right?
[00:47:11 –> 00:47:13] And this is where that does have to be the foundation
[00:47:13 –> 00:47:16] and the source and the summit of kind of all
[00:47:16 –> 00:47:18] of our relationships is a relationship with the Lord
[00:47:18 –> 00:47:22] is being able to, “Okay, Lord, this is painful
[00:47:22 –> 00:47:23] and this is hard and this hurts,
[00:47:23 –> 00:47:26] and I’m not just gonna escape to this,
[00:47:26 –> 00:47:27] but people don’t get this.”
[00:47:27 –> 00:47:29] Or, “Here’s a place where I was misunderstood.
[00:47:29 –> 00:47:33] Here’s whatever, but I know that you know.
[00:47:33 –> 00:47:34] I know that you get it.
[00:47:34 –> 00:47:35] I know that you understand it.”
[00:47:38 –> 00:47:40] And again, we don’t wanna spiritually bypass
[00:47:40 –> 00:47:42] and just skip all the other steps
[00:47:42 –> 00:47:43] or just kind of come to this
[00:47:43 –> 00:47:44] as some sort of escape or hiding,
[00:47:44 –> 00:47:47] but we do wanna make this movement towards this place
[00:47:47 –> 00:47:49] of like, “Okay, Lord,
[00:47:50 –> 00:47:52] I feel like I might be a little bit alone in here
[00:47:52 –> 00:47:53] or pretty alone here.
[00:47:56 –> 00:48:00] Can this be a place of particular intimacy with you?”
[00:48:03 –> 00:48:04] Yeah.
[00:48:04 –> 00:48:05] I don’t know.
[00:48:05 –> 00:48:08] Any other thoughts or things you guys have on that or?
[00:48:09 –> 00:48:11] No, sorry.
[00:48:11 –> 00:48:13] No, I mean, I appreciate that it always comes back
[00:48:13 –> 00:48:15] to that place, can it be an opportunity, right?
[00:48:15 –> 00:48:20] Because yeah, the world, this is kinda playful to say,
[00:48:21 –> 00:48:23] but the world, it just kinda clunky
[00:48:23 –> 00:48:24] and we’re gonna be misunderstood.
[00:48:24 –> 00:48:28] So can it come back?
[00:48:28 –> 00:48:29] We’re just gonna be weakness.
[00:48:29 –> 00:48:30] There’s gonna be misunderstandings
[00:48:30 –> 00:48:32] and so can it come back to Jesus?
[00:48:32 –> 00:48:35] And then from there in that security,
[00:48:35 –> 00:48:38] can we work for the understanding
[00:48:38 –> 00:48:42] and can we work for the deeper communions to sacrifice
[00:48:42 –> 00:48:45] and to understand each other?
[00:48:45 –> 00:48:47] But I just love how it comes back to the starting
[00:48:47 –> 00:48:49] and ending place, which is the Lord.
[00:48:50 –> 00:48:52] I had someone call me out the other day
[00:48:52 –> 00:48:53] and they were like, “Hey,
[00:48:53 –> 00:48:54] make sure when you have conversations with postulants
[00:48:54 –> 00:48:57] that they know that you’re not the finality
[00:48:58 –> 00:48:59] of what they need
[00:48:59 –> 00:49:02] and they always are taught to go to the Lord.”
[00:49:02 –> 00:49:03] And again, I think we know that,
[00:49:03 –> 00:49:05] but I think the gift or like, wow,
[00:49:05 –> 00:49:07] someone reminding me of that.
[00:49:07 –> 00:49:09] We always wanna make sure that in the midst
[00:49:09 –> 00:49:11] of human relationships where we’re weak and we’re poor
[00:49:11 –> 00:49:14] and people fall short, and I may be hurt by that,
[00:49:14 –> 00:49:16] that I’m always have this inclination
[00:49:16 –> 00:49:19] and this desire to go to Jesus.
[00:49:19 –> 00:49:21] So I was like, “Well, yeah, totally,”
[00:49:21 –> 00:49:23] just convicted by that in a very simple way.
[00:49:23 –> 00:49:25] It was like, oh, crap. (chuckles)
[00:49:25 –> 00:49:26] Mm-hmm.
[00:49:26 –> 00:49:27] Yeah.
[00:49:27 –> 00:49:29] And just to say once again, I mean, we’ve named it,
[00:49:29 –> 00:49:32] but it is tough when you’re in the space of feeling
[00:49:32 –> 00:49:34] that nobody understands your experience,
[00:49:34 –> 00:49:35] and just to name that.
[00:49:35 –> 00:49:38] And there are times where it’ll be isolating.
[00:49:38 –> 00:49:39] It’ll feel like I’m alone in this.
[00:49:39 –> 00:49:43] But also, we have people around us
[00:49:43 –> 00:49:45] who can support us in this space,
[00:49:45 –> 00:49:47] even though they may not 100% understand,
[00:49:47 –> 00:49:51] but we can identify sometimes as people who are good.
[00:49:51 –> 00:49:52] But ultimately, the Lord, right, in this space.
[00:49:52 –> 00:49:57] And so yeah, just to kudos, and yes, everything to you
[00:49:57 –> 00:49:59] that you just said, Fr. Mary.
[00:50:00 –> 00:50:02] Thanks, guys.
[00:50:02 –> 00:50:05] And yeah, what comes to mind is like people are like…
[00:50:05 –> 00:50:06] I’m speaking to Fr. Angelus right now,
[00:50:06 –> 00:50:07] but people are gonna keep seeing you in public
[00:50:07 –> 00:50:09] and be like, “Hey, Fr. Innocent.”
[00:50:09 –> 00:50:11] And you’re like, “Oh, no, sorry, actually Fr. Angelus.”
[00:50:11 –> 00:50:13] And be like, “Oh, whatever, same thing.”
[00:50:13 –> 00:50:14] It’s like, well, it’s not.
[00:50:15 –> 00:50:16] That kinda hurt.
[00:50:16 –> 00:50:18] That’s not super helpful to hear all the time,
[00:50:18 –> 00:50:18] you know what I mean?
[00:50:18 –> 00:50:21] But there is a degree of, okay, this is-
[00:50:21 –> 00:50:22] Acceptance of that.
[00:50:22 –> 00:50:23] People don’t get it.
[00:50:24 –> 00:50:25] The Lord knows my name.
[00:50:25 –> 00:50:26] He knows who I am.
[00:50:26 –> 00:50:27] So do other people, which is good.
[00:50:30 –> 00:50:30] Yeah, thank you guys.
[00:50:30 –> 00:50:33] And I think, yeah, I think we touched
[00:50:33 –> 00:50:36] on this stuff well, but.
[00:50:38 –> 00:50:40] Great. Thanks, bro.
[00:50:40 –> 00:50:41] Fr. PT, can you close us?
[00:50:41 –> 00:50:42] Yeah.
[00:50:42 –> 00:50:43] Father, Son, Holy Spirit, amen.
[00:50:45 –> 00:50:47] Good and gracious Father, we give you thanks for seeing us,
[00:50:47 –> 00:50:49] for always seeing us and being with us
[00:50:49 –> 00:50:52] in those places that feel alone or feel difficult.
[00:50:52 –> 00:50:55] We just ask that you would continually just look upon us
[00:50:55 –> 00:50:58] with love, grant us the grace to know that you are with us,
[00:50:58 –> 00:50:59] and more so just give us hearts
[00:50:59 –> 00:51:01] and eyes to be able to see others
[00:51:01 –> 00:51:03] in the way in which you see them.
[00:51:03 –> 00:51:04] And we ask this through Christ our Lord, amen.
[00:51:04 –> 00:51:06] Amen. – Amen.
[00:51:06 –> 00:51:07] Father, Son, Holy Spirit, amen.
[00:51:10 –> 00:51:12] All right, nothin’? – I have-
[00:51:12 –> 00:51:13] Go ahead. – I have a shout-out
[00:51:13 –> 00:51:15] to Jonathan and Maria.
[00:51:15 –> 00:51:16] Just wanna say what up.
[00:51:17 –> 00:51:20] Couple from Louisiana, just had lunch with them, and so.
[00:51:20 –> 00:51:22] I know Jonathan is listening attentively,
[00:51:22 –> 00:51:24] but may be sleeping, but anyway.
[00:51:24 –> 00:51:27] (fathers chuckling)
[00:51:27 –> 00:51:28] All right, thanks, everybody.
[00:51:28 –> 00:51:29] Peace. – Peace, everybody.
[00:51:29 –> 00:51:30] Bye. – Peace.
[00:51:30 –> 00:51:31] ♪ Poco a Poco ♪
[00:51:31 –> 00:51:34] (vocalist singing in Spanish)
[00:51:34 –> 00:51:35] ♪ And you know that’s who we ♪